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Subject: Re: Any Programs See THIS As A Draw? - question to programmers

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 11:05:23 11/13/00

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On November 13, 2000 at 13:13:33, Jeremiah Penery wrote:

>On November 13, 2000 at 10:18:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 13, 2000 at 02:46:37, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>>
>>>On November 12, 2000 at 02:42:20, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 12, 2000 at 01:41:43, Helmut Conrady wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[D]8/8/8/2KR4/3R4/2k1b3/8/8 w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>In a test with Fritz 6a, Junior 6, Shredder 4, Century 1.2 Tiger 12, Hiarcs
>>>>>7.32, Nimzo 7.32 no one did.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It is an easy position.
>>>>
>>>>You only need the 5 piece tablebases.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>>>
>>>>>What about an algorithm like this: if i have a graet material advantage and can
>>>>>not make any progress after some moves I will check wheter it can be a draw!
>>>>>
>>>>>Helmut
>>>>
>>>>You should explain how to check it and the problem is that you may expect the
>>>>opponent to get a position when you have small material advantage.
>>>>
>>>>The alpha beta does not tell you about second best move so you will not know
>>>>that you cannot make progress before it is too late.
>>>
>>>I think you can check to see if the score is the same for some number of
>>>iterations, and if there have been no captures (or certain other moves) in that
>>>time, then you can return a draw score.  I think I remember someone talking
>>>about implementing something like this (Hossa, IIRC) some time back.
>>>I'm trying to implement something similar to this in Crafty right now, but I'm
>>>having difficulty finding exactly where the code needs to go.
>>
>>
>>This is a very old idea.  Dave Slate implemented what he called the "weariness"
>>factor in chess 4.x... the idea was that as the 50 move rule draws closer, the
>>score approaches a draw.  I used to do this in Crafty in fact, but it has some
>>problems when dealing with the hash table since the 50 move counter isn't part
>>of the stuff used to make the signature.
>>
>>But the idea is reasonable, and we copied it in Cray Blitz.  The only issue is
>>_when_ do you let it kick in?  20 moves after you reset the 50 move counter?
>>30?  15?
>
>My idea was not to use the 50-move counter, but something else.  If the output
>looks like this:
>
>           8->    0.13   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8
>           9      0.24   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1
>           9->    0.34   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1
>          10      0.56   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1 6. Rg8
>          10->    0.76   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1 6. Rg8
>
>Then to score it as a draw after 3 iterations where the same score is output.

It is a bad idea because it is possible that 1.Rd8 Bxd4+ 2.Kd3 is winning so by
scoring Rd8 as a draw you are going to miss 1.Rd8 that is winning and play 1.Rd7
that gives only 1.1 pawns advantage that is not enough to win.

Uri



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