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Subject: Re: Any Programs See THIS As A Draw? - question to programmers

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:29:02 11/13/00

Go up one level in this thread


On November 13, 2000 at 14:05:23, Uri Blass wrote:

>On November 13, 2000 at 13:13:33, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>
>>On November 13, 2000 at 10:18:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 13, 2000 at 02:46:37, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 12, 2000 at 02:42:20, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 12, 2000 at 01:41:43, Helmut Conrady wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]8/8/8/2KR4/3R4/2k1b3/8/8 w - -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In a test with Fritz 6a, Junior 6, Shredder 4, Century 1.2 Tiger 12, Hiarcs
>>>>>>7.32, Nimzo 7.32 no one did.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is an easy position.
>>>>>
>>>>>You only need the 5 piece tablebases.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What about an algorithm like this: if i have a graet material advantage and can
>>>>>>not make any progress after some moves I will check wheter it can be a draw!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Helmut
>>>>>
>>>>>You should explain how to check it and the problem is that you may expect the
>>>>>opponent to get a position when you have small material advantage.
>>>>>
>>>>>The alpha beta does not tell you about second best move so you will not know
>>>>>that you cannot make progress before it is too late.
>>>>
>>>>I think you can check to see if the score is the same for some number of
>>>>iterations, and if there have been no captures (or certain other moves) in that
>>>>time, then you can return a draw score.  I think I remember someone talking
>>>>about implementing something like this (Hossa, IIRC) some time back.
>>>>I'm trying to implement something similar to this in Crafty right now, but I'm
>>>>having difficulty finding exactly where the code needs to go.
>>>
>>>
>>>This is a very old idea.  Dave Slate implemented what he called the "weariness"
>>>factor in chess 4.x... the idea was that as the 50 move rule draws closer, the
>>>score approaches a draw.  I used to do this in Crafty in fact, but it has some
>>>problems when dealing with the hash table since the 50 move counter isn't part
>>>of the stuff used to make the signature.
>>>
>>>But the idea is reasonable, and we copied it in Cray Blitz.  The only issue is
>>>_when_ do you let it kick in?  20 moves after you reset the 50 move counter?
>>>30?  15?
>>
>>My idea was not to use the 50-move counter, but something else.  If the output
>>looks like this:
>>
>>           8->    0.13   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8
>>           9      0.24   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1
>>           9->    0.34   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1
>>          10      0.56   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1 6. Rg8
>>          10->    0.76   4.50   1. Rd8 Bxd4+ 2. Rxd4 Kb2 3. Rd8 Ka1
>>                                4. Kc6 Ka2 5. Rh8 Ka1 6. Rg8
>>
>>Then to score it as a draw after 3 iterations where the same score is output.
>
>It is a bad idea because it is possible that 1.Rd8 Bxd4+ 2.Kd3 is winning so by
>scoring Rd8 as a draw you are going to miss 1.Rd8 that is winning and play 1.Rd7
>that gives only 1.1 pawns advantage that is not enough to win.
>
>Uri


Also I don't believe that 3 successive iterations with the same score means
that no progress can be made.  Maybe three successive _moves_ in the game with
no score change indicates something.  But not three successive iterations.  I
see this all the time.



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