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Subject: Re: first step in defining if a program is Gm level

Author: Mark Young

Date: 14:59:09 07/01/01

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On July 01, 2001 at 17:20:18, Hristo wrote:

>On July 01, 2001 at 15:38:11, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On July 01, 2001 at 15:20:12, Hristo wrote:
>>
>>>On July 01, 2001 at 14:19:39, Mark Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 01, 2001 at 13:57:22, Otello Gnaramori wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 01, 2001 at 13:25:28, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>After that the Elo rating is how Grandmasters are ranked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2500 to 2599 Elo: standard or average Grandmaster rating. Most Grandmasters fall
>>>>>>in this group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2600 to 2699 Elo: What some call the Elite Grandmaster ranks. Usually less then
>>>>>>100 Grandmaster fill the Elite ranks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2700 & Up Elo: World Class Grandmaster ranks and usually includes the World
>>>>>>Chess Champion(s) and challengers. Usually contains less then 10 players, but
>>>>>>has gone up in recent years.
>>>>>
>>>>>Great reply Mark!
>>>>>But now a subtle question arises ... Which of the three above mentioned
>>>>>categories does the top programs belongs to ?
>>>>>Probably this is the second step in definition ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The data suggest strongly that the computers are in the Elite Grandmaster ranks.
>>>>Tiger like Junior is confirming this data.
>>>>
>>>>It must be noted every player above 2580 is a Grandmaster on the current Fide
>>>>Elo list.
>>>>
>>>>All data suggest that computers are above the 2580 elo rating, or average
>>>>Grandmaster class.
>>>>
>>>>That is why the GM argument is like arguing if the world if flat or round.
>>>>
>>>>Only subjectively could you argue that the world is flat, “Can’t you see by
>>>>looking the world is flat”.
>>>>
>>>
>>>This only makes cense if you have a "flat head" ... ;-)))))
>>>If you don't I'm going to "crunch your head" and make it flat ... so
>>>you argument is valid! ;-)))) ...
>>>I refer to " The kids in the hall" ... thing ... just so you don't get
>>>offended.
>>>
>>>Whats the point of claiming 2600 .... How valid is it?! Why don't you play
>>>COMPS vs COMPS and tell me when you have the winner. After how many games?
>>>What are the conditions for the COPMS vs COMPS tournament?!
>>
>>Why don't you think that strongest program are not 2600+? The data playing
>>humans and human grandmasters shows the best programs to be this strong.
>>
>>What data do you have that counters this....other then what you would like to be
>>true.
>>
>
>:-)))
>You might be missing my point!
>Lets say all COMPS are over 2600 ... Whatever that might might mean!

You need to find out what a rating is so you can frame a question that makes
sense.

BTW Its two different issues: What strength are computer programs today? What is
the strongest computer program and how do you prove it.



>NoW! How do you calculate the strenght of individual COMPS?!
>If I tell you "Run an 11 rond tornament with all programs over 2400."
>you are going to reject my sugesion, because the results might
>not be correct! Fair enough! But why do you accept a 9 round tournament
>,against humans, as a better measurement of COMPS strength?!
>(even if it is three of them)
>If you do ... then this is at best a hypocrisy ... ;-)
>What does it take to prove that one COMP is better than another COMP??!
>How do you do it?! Assuming human raitings have nothing to do with it!
>You have won all possible human tournaments! Now what?!
>Your logic must extend beyond the fact that COMPS can win against
>humans! Can your COMP win aganst another COMP?! This other COMP, however,
>might not have as many wins against humans as your COMP. ....
>Well ... what do you do then ....
>:-)
>Mind, you, I'm not challenging the fact that COMPS are very (VERY) strong
>... just, what is the meaning of all of this for me?! A simple human?!
>For the most part, as a human, I can not gain anything from the fact that
>COMP are over 2600. Simple as that. It doesn't matter ...
>does the "neutrino" have mass? Who, the hell, cares!
>
>What other proof do you need! I can give you examples of the total stupidity
>of those 2600+ COMPS, even after 10+ hours of thinking. Do you think that
>1+ billion nodes will change your mind?! ;=|
>You'll pick what is best to prove your point! However, the COMPS very often
>consider lines that are, at best, silly!
>
>best regards.
>hristo
>
>
>
>>>
>>>regards.
>>>hristo
>>>
>>>
>>>>All objective evidence is showing the best computer programs are above 2500+,
>>>>and strongly suggests them above 2600.
>>>>
>>>>More data coming...



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