Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:03:57 08/21/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 21, 2002 at 08:20:07, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On August 21, 2002 at 07:58:52, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >needed to get more crafty versions? > >That all ain't octobre 1997... What is your point? razoring is _not_ "forward pruning". It produces a somewhat similar result. the "last modified" doesn't mean a thing, of course. That doesn't say _what_ was modified. search.c is modified regularly. > >/* last modified 04/01/99 */ > >/* > ---------------------------------------------------------- >| | >| now we toss in the "razoring" trick, which simply says | >| if we are doing fairly badly, we can reduce the depth | >| an additional ply, if there was nothing at the current | >| ply that caused an extension. | >| | > ---------------------------------------------------------- >*/ > if (depth<3*INCPLY && depth>=2*INCPLY && > !tree->in_check[ply] && extensions == -60) { > register const int value=-Evaluate(tree,ply+1,ChangeSide(wtm), > -(beta+51),-(alpha-51)); > if (value+50 < alpha) extensions-=60; > } > > > >>On August 20, 2002 at 17:56:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 20, 2002 at 07:12:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:48:08, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:15:47, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 15:08:49, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 09:06:02, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kasparov proved that he can defeat programs at fast time controls when he >>>>>>>>defeated Deep Thought in a game/90 two games match in 1989. This program was >>>>>>>>weaker than Deep Junior is today, as it searched well over 2,000,000 NPS, but >>>>>>>>didn't have as much chess knowledge as Deep Junior. He also defeated Deep Blue >>>>>>>>in 1996. This program is obviously much faster than Deep Junior is today, but in >>>>>>>>my opinion Deep Junior still has more chess knowledge than Deep Blue had back in >>>>>>>>1996. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>PS: It is hard to compare Deep Blue of 1997 vs Deep Junior of today, but in my >>>>>>>>opinion Deep Junior Chess Knowledge could make up for the difference of Deep >>>>>>>>Blue super calculating power of 1997. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How do you know all this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How do you know Deep Junior has more chess knowledge? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I mean, we don't know what Deep Blue evaluated exactly (save a few things >>>>>>>that are published). We know *nothing* about what Deep Junior evaluates >>>>>>>exactly. >>>>>> >>>>>>yes we know that. Look at the paper it describes about 40 patterns and if >>>>>>you multiply that with arrays of 64 (that's how it goes in hardware) >>>>>>and add to it piece square tables it is exactly what theydid. of course how >>>>>>well defined the patterns are is a different case. >>>>>> >>>>>>We can see that at the rude play very easily. Look at game 1 from 97, >>>>>>where it played manoeuvres like qa5 bc7 qc5 which even seirawan comments >>>>>>correctly in his 1997 analysis. Gnuchess accuracy it is. Very rude and >>>>>>primitive, but for a program with a leaf evaluation (even though some >>>>>>tuning by preprocessor took place) with several tens of patterns (and >>>>>>as a result of that several thousands of adjustable parameters) that >>>>>>means it was searching deeper than any program with that amount of >>>>>>knowledge in evaluation in 1997. I for sure had more in 97 (though i >>>>>>used arrays less back in 97 than i do now as i'm not hardware but >>>>>>software and L2 caches were performing bad in general back then until >>>>>>pentium pro which took a few years to adjust to) so had others, but we >>>>>>all shared that at a 200Mhz pentiumpro we searched 8-9 ply, NOT 11-12. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I'm not going to comment on the rest of your nonsensical statements, but >>>>>the above is clearly wrong and that is provable. I played in Jakarta on >>>>>a pentium pro 200. And _My program_ searched 11-12 plies. I have the logs >>>>>to prove it. And anyone that wants to download the crafty (jakarta) version >>>>>can find the same thing... >>>>> >>>>>So if you are going to make statements, at _least_ verify that there is some >>>>>basis of truth to them first. _you_ might not have been able to hit 11-12 >>>>>plies on a P6/200, but I did... And others did as well. >>>> >>>> - no checks in qsearch >>>> - forward pruning last ply which also hurted nullmove incredible >>> >>>Don't know what you mean there. If you are talking about razoring, it was >>>a 25% gain roughly but it was removed many years ago... >> >>Yes it was removed around 2000-2001 after i adviced you to remove it Bob. >> >>>> - no mating extensions (not solving win at chess 141 even soon which >>>> in 1997 was a 9 ply trick for me). >>> >>>Crafty has been solving wac141 for a long time. The null-move mate threat >>>speeded it up a ply, maybe... >>> >>>But that is not the point... You said "nobody got to 11-12 plies". I got >>>to 11-12 plies. Your statement is therefore simply false because of that. >> >>A dubious 11-12 ply which doesn't compare to them doesn't count. >> >>Look DIEP 1997 was comparable, so was gnuchess or Zarkov, so was >>The King. When forward pruning turned off (except nullmove) in the king >>from that period, neither of all the programs ever got 11-12 ply. >> >>We can't count an idiotic crafty version. Crafty in 1997 didn't have >>anything called 'king safety'. I remember how you did effort to prevent >>getting mated by something stupid where even diep version 1.0 didn't >>fall for at bullet search depths back then, and where crafty fell for >>even at 11-12 ply. You had a special feature at icc created to prevent >>that 'mercilous' attack even. Everyone in blitz and bullet could beat >>crafty very long period of time with just a simple king safety trick which >>even 1400 chessplayers understood. They were noplayed, censored, a special >>S list was created, anything but the king safety was fixed. >> >>If you run with material only, every idiot gets 11-12 ply. Now you didn't >>even get it in a legal way. You needed forward pruning for it. >> >>Your memory is FUCKING bad that you don't even remember when you turned >>off the forward pruning in crafty. >> >>>You didn't qualify the "nobody to exclude those that can't solve wac 141 >>>fast enough for you or whatever." >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Fritz3 also got 11 ply but it was also with a lot of dubiousy. >>>> >>>>In fact some hit 15 ply as well with major forward pruning back then. >>>> >>>>But that is not a fair compare. We must compare programs that searched >>>>in the same way Bob. So not forward pruning, at most nullmove. and >>>>strong in the leaves. >>>> >>>>Crafty even today is very weak there. >>> >>>Where does that leave _your_ program then??? >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>So then 11-12 wins simply. 8-9 with evaluations from that period lost >>>>>>simply. period. >>>>>> >>>>>>Evaluations 8-9 nowadays are a different case (extending way more nowadays >>>>>>too than in 1997 too). The evaluation of DIEP is a top grandmaster relatively >>>>>>seen when compared to 1997 where it knew shit from endgames for example. >>>>>> >>>>>>>As a consequence, you can't possibly support any of the claims or >>>>>>>suggestions you make. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes we can. The biggest evidence is the games played. Statistical evidence >>>>>>on how programs play moves is the best. The major problem is that you need >>>>>>to invest time if your chess level is not so high to see it and even a high >>>>>>rated chessplayer who knows nothing from how chessprograms evaluate will >>>>>>completely fail here (though Seirawan came pretty far but as he was paid >>>>>>by IBM he described it in a positive way, leaving conclusions to the reader). >>>>>> >>>>>>We have seen some marvellous conclusions already by Uri here based upon >>>>>>logfiles from the IBM computer. From evaluation viewpoint we >>>>>>see for example from the mainlines that it gives a big bonus for a bishop >>>>>>attacking its own queen. We also see it only cares for how many squares the >>>>>>queen can go to, not caring for patterns there. Very basic things which >>>>>>were at the time very normal in gnuchess type programs. >>>>>> >>>>>>We also see that it knows really nothing from good/bad bishops (not >>>>>>surprising, only 1 program had in 97 this thing and it was mine). It >>>>>>simply didn't care for the center at all. This is amazing nowadays >>>>>>comercial programs *only* care for the center. >>>>>> >>>>>>Also its knowledge on passers was very primitif. We see for example that >>>>>>it doesn't see difference even between covered passers and very good >>>>>>blocked passers. Regrettably that didn't happen a lot on the board. >>>>>> >>>>>>The most amazing thing by far is its huge penalties and bonuses for a few >>>>>>king safety things. that of course led to big patzer play which is nice >>>>>>and nowadays very normal. These penalties/bonuses are in complete >>>>>>contrast to pawn structure aroudn the king. In many games we see >>>>>>major mistakes here. game 1, but if i remember well game 4 where >>>>>>deep blue castles long and then plays horrible king moves and b4 b5. >>>>>> >>>>>>From the many king moves in the game and in the logfiles we see clearly that >>>>>>it had a very primitif 'opponent pieces to my king' distance feature. >>>>>> >>>>>>I remember how DIEP back in 95,96 wanted also always ka1 because that would >>>>>>mean the king is further away from the pieces. A very basic mistake we >>>>>>still see in some engines. It is a non-preprocessor mistake obviously. >>>>>> >>>>>>but it doesn't take away that the pattern is a very primitive heuristic. >>>>>> >>>>>>nearly all kind of bad moves are explained by simple bugs in evaluation. >>>>>>100% the exact bugs gnuchess also has. >>>>>> >>>>>>the comparision with gnuchess is not fair, but for evaluation it sure is. >>>>>> >>>>>>We see that the 'new gnuchess', sorry to call it like that, zarkovx, >>>>>>is the program which when getting 10-11 ply is playing from all chess software >>>>>>nearly exactly every move which deep blue also played. don't use the >>>>>>dos-zarkov, but i mean the 4.5xx versions of zarkovx where John hardly >>>>>>nullmoves the last few plies (they take some time to get 10-12 ply, >>>>>>horrible branching factor). It makes the same weird moves, same mistakes, >>>>>>same strong moves. It is a perfect match for how deep blue played. >>>>>> >>>>>>A person who can't play chess at all and whose program is exactly making >>>>>>the mistakes a beginner makes when making a chess evaluation. >>>>>> >>>>>>Best regards, >>>>>>Vincent >>>>>> >>>>>>>All of this talk about Deep Blue this and Deep Blue that is just pure >>>>>>>bullshit. Maybe Fritz 7 would kick its ass. Maybe Fritz 7 would get >>>>>>>its ass kicked. Maybe they're about as strong. I dont care either way >>>>>>>since Deep Blue doesn't exist anymore and it certainly doesn't look as >>>>>>>if it's ever going to play again. So why care about it? Why keep making >>>>>>>totally unfounded speculations? What's the frigging point? This kind >>>>>>>of discussion comes up about once in every 2 months and there has NEVER >>>>>>>EVER come anything insightful out. Instead, a lot of people are making >>>>>>>claims or saying things that they can never ever support, or even are >>>>>>>demonstrably wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mention the words 'Deep' and 'Blue' to anyone who works in computer >>>>>>>chess, and all sanity suddently grinds to a halt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>GCP
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