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Subject: Re: Proposal to Bob and Ricardo! CCT5 - Crafty perspective

Author: Ricardo Gibert

Date: 19:24:43 01/21/03

Go up one level in this thread


On January 21, 2003 at 17:19:53, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On January 21, 2003 at 16:16:19, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On January 21, 2003 at 15:25:21, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On January 21, 2003 at 14:35:50, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 09:17:36, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 09:09:49, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 08:52:02, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 23:00:55, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 21:57:38, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 21:32:22, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 20:44:21, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Round 6  Crafty vs Searcher
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>A near disaster for the first game of the second day.  The same d4 opening
>>>>>>>>>>>led to a similar position, but things did not go very well here.  First score
>>>>>>>>>>>out of book was -.42, which was typical for every 1. d4 game crafty played as
>>>>>>>>>>>white. But it was able to pull that up quickly normally.  10 moves out of book,
>>>>>>>>>>>the score hadn't changed, showing that searcher was playing very well and with
>>>>>>>>>>>a reasonable amount of understanding of the position.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Finally by move 24, Crafty was back to a slightly + score, and this held until
>>>>>>>>>>>it started dropping as it misjudged the queen/rook attacking in the center.  At
>>>>>>>>>>>move 32, the score was -.68 after 16 plies.  at move 35, the score was -1.5, at
>>>>>>>>>>>move 40 -2.0, -2.5 at move 50, -3 at move 60,  and at this point Crafty dug
>>>>>>>>>>>in its heels and pulled the score back to -2.3 where it stayed for a long
>>>>>>>>>>>while.  But it slowly traded pawns, and the score started swinting back.  By
>>>>>>>>>>>move 80, it was -2.0 again, -1.5 by move 85, -1.0 by move 95,  and it finally
>>>>>>>>>>>reported a draw score at move 102.  Of all the games it played, this was a
>>>>>>>>>>>really nice effort as it showed a lot of understanding about king rook and pawn
>>>>>>>>>>>endings, something I have worked on a lot over the years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I find your last sentence surprising. Crafty was very lucky in this game that
>>>>>>>>>>Searcherx did not play 62...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 winning easily.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Crafty says if you play Re8 it just plays Rb7 immediately, not Kg3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Score doesn't change much...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It may be overlooking something, but it isn't going to let black get
>>>>>>>>>the rook behind the pawn...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Maybe we are at the wrong move?  IE you have two move 62's above.
>>>>>>>>>Do you mean 61. Re8?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yes. 61...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 was my intention.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Going back to move 61, and playing Re8 Kg3 Rb8 I get Rd4 and Rb4.  White
>>>>>>>>>loses one of the pawns on the h file, but only one.  It isn't clear to me,
>>>>>>>>>without a lot of study, how black makes progress.  The pawn is blockaded, so
>>>>>>>>>the black rook is stuck on the b file unless it gives check.  The black
>>>>>>>>>king can't abandon the kingside or white will eat the g pawn and the hpawn
>>>>>>>>>should be enough to force the trade of the rook and a draw...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>[D]8/1p1R2pk/5p2/7P/7P/5Kn1/4r3/8 b - - 0 60
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>61...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 63.Rd4 b5 64.Rb4 Kh6 65.Kg4 Rb7 66.Kh3 Kxh5 67.Kg3 g6
>>>>>>>>68.Kh3 f5 69.Kg3 Rb6 70.Kh3 Rc6 71.Rb3 Rc4 is a prosaic and convincing win.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A comparable position is available with many different continuations. One is
>>>>>>>your 61-Re8 others I pointed out in
>>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?278466
>>>>>>>The point is that you always winn with the f/g free pawns if they are so good
>>>>>>>combined. No need to know the rule of the R behind the pawns because you give
>>>>>>>the b pawn away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kind regards,
>>>>>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Even though it is later given away, it handcuffs the defense giving time to make
>>>>>>preparations before giving up the b-pawn to win on the K-side, so it is still an
>>>>>>important tool.
>>>>>
>>>>>No doubt about it. But I was looking for the programmers and you said yourself
>>>>>that this is difficult to program. So I had a look at totally normal chess,
>>>>>calculable or countable if you like. And this position with the combined pawns
>>>>>is won and that is the whole thing. I meant the argument of the "difficult"
>>>>>Re8-b8 is even not necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>One of the problems here is that the f and g pawns are _not_ passed.  The f pawn
>>>>is.  The
>>>>g-pawn is not, because white hangs on to the h-pawn.  Here are the problems I
>>>>see that have
>>>>to be solved:
>>>>
>>>>1.  black's rook is behind the b-pawn.  If black moves the rook without giving
>>>>check, the
>>>>pawn goes away as it is attacked by white's rook.
>>>>
>>>>2.  I will assume the h5 pawn is going to "go".  After Re8 Kxg3 Rb8 Rd4 b5 Rb4
>>>>the rooks
>>>>are stuck.  Black can move to b8/b7/b6.  White can't move the rook or the pawn
>>>>advances.
>>>>
>>>>3.  After black takes on h5 and white keeps the king at g3-h3 to hold the
>>>>h-pawn, black has
>>>>a couple of plans.  But not all work.  The king can't go help the rook, because
>>>>white's king makes
>>>>that a long path and it is close to the kingside pawns.  the king can't win the
>>>>white h-pawn by
>>>>itself, and it can't get the rook up to attack it.  So either the king goes to
>>>>the queenside to help
>>>>the b-pawn advance, or black tries advancing the f-pawn.
>>>>
>>>>White definitely has many problems here, but the question is "are they _all_
>>>>unsolvable?"
>>>>It isn't that clear to me.  One thing is for sure, it isn't an "easy win".  It
>>>>is going to take a lot
>>>>of sweat and calculation.
>>>
>>>Sorry, Bob, you must have been tricked by your own program because GR is right,
>>>this is really easy. Just play through his variation. You as White have no
>>>chance to deviate from that line more or less. The plan of Black is so easy:
>>>Your R is on b4, then he puts his R on b6 and when it suits him he will go for
>>>the double attack on your last pawn h4. So the b pawn has no meaning after all.
>>>It is just to keep you in tension with your R. Then, when the last pawn of White
>>>has been taken, the rest is known theory. And you can't do anything against it.
>>>So - what I found very clever during the game, that Crafty played merry-go-round
>>>in the center with R and N and for all neutralized the dangerous d pawn, that
>>>does not draw because of the given final. And Black could win earlier, with my
>>>move Rf2 instead Rc3, and your K is outplaced. So you must search for
>>>alternatives way earlier. The structure with the double pawn is weak. First the
>>>d pawn and then Black also had the free b pawn afterwards, so basically it's not
>>>the good game by Crafty as I had thought at first. But overall you were very
>>>good with Ferret who normally should draw in the last round and then tie with
>>>you. Ferret played really sharp chess while you are extremely good in your time
>>>management, that was very obvious to me. Was one of the best results for you,
>>>right?
>>>
>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>No.  The ferret result was _bad_.  A loss is bad.  :)
>>
>>the ruffian and yace games were good.  They were wins.  :)
>>
>>However, until I have time to study the searcher endgame, I can't say much more.
>>It isn't an "easy" win in my opinion (by black).  It might be winnable.  But
>>there
>>are enough places to go wrong that a human might well have problems.  IE it
>>would be interesting to play this against a human at a minute a move or whatever
>>to see how "easy" it turns out to be.  :)
>>
>>I would expect more than one "oh shit!" during the experiment.  :)
>>
>>Humans might think that they know all about rook endings.  But if you go back
>>prior
>>to endgame tables, humans thought they knew all about KQ vs KR, until belle
>>showed
>>the world that the king and rook to _not_ stay together for best defense.
>>
>>So while I don't like white's position, until I study it in detail, I haven't
>>concluded it
>>is lost yet, myself...
>
>
>PROPOSAL:
>
>As Ricardo said he is now sure how to win against all defense. Bob, couldn't we
>organize that on ICC on a specific date so that many of us could follow?
>Ricardo, would that be possibl for you to go on ICC?
>
>Rolf Tueschen


As long as I get to play Black, I'm game if RH is.

Next Sunday evening works for me. A blitz time control such as 5 mins plus a 5
sec increment should be plenty. I'll play a slower time control if RH thinks
Crafty needs more time to play this well.

BTW, I want to warn you about building this up too much. The position really is
quite lopsided, so the spectators are liable to find it anticlimactic.


>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[snip]



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