Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:04:37 10/20/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 20, 1999 at 11:42:18, KarinsDad wrote: >On October 20, 1999 at 08:28:55, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >[snip] >> >>Programs called "Masterchess" and "Grandmaster Chess" exist, though. >> >>Dave > >The words "master" and "chess" proliferate through the chess playing and chess >programming worlds. > >However, the word Junior means nothing with regards to chess itself. Hence, I >would think that it would be easier to prove a case of trademark infringement on >the word Junior than on the word Master (again, my knowledge of legal matters is >virtually nil, so this is only my opinion). If so, IBM would win the suit, as they have a "junior" trademark already, in the machine "PC Junior". To even think about a 'trademark' infringement, you first have to obtain the trademark. In the US, a trademark on "junior" would be very unlikely to be awarded, because there are thousands of products that already have the word "junior" in them. But even more important, just as the term "master" is quite common in chess, as you say, the term "junior" is _more_ common in all products in the US and North America. That seems to be _the_ issue IMHO. IBM didn't take the name "junior" to attach itself to another chess program... ;they took the name "junior" as a way of saying "this isn't the _real_ DB, it is significantly weaker" which is how the word "junior" is generally used in product naming over here. > >Also, Robert mentioned that there was a Cray Blitz Junior years ago since he ran >the program on a smaller Cray. However, there is also a difference between >running a program called Cray Blitz on a smaller system for a tournament or >three, renaming it CB Jr. in order to not confuse people, and then never running >it again (i.e. that was the name used for the tournaments, but not really the >name of the program); and Amir coming up with the name Junior for a program that >he sells on the market and then Dr. Hsu coming up with the name Deep Blue Junior >which he has not sold on the market, but may some day (and of course, CB Jr. >wasn't sold on the market either). How does any of that matter? If you look at when Junior hit the market, I believe it was _after_ DB junior played and 'existed'. CB Junior existed and had a real game history, as it played in real USCF events. And CB "junior" was used many more times. I was often asked to do demos at chess events, and I would generally do so when possible, but almost always on a much slower machine than the fastest actually available at that time (IE if we entered the ACM event on a C90, then that was "cray blitz". If we did a demo on an old 4 cpu XMP, we would make up a sign "cray blitz junior"). > >To me (and again, I am a layman on legal matters), it would seem that Amir has >the rights to the name Junior and Dr. Hsu does not since Junior got to the >market first (I'm sure there are some trademarks that can be maintained before >getting to market, but I doubt Dr. Hsu did that). And since the name Junior is >used in it's entirety within the name Deep Blue Junior, there could be a false >assumption by some people that Deep Blue Junior is related to Junior. For >example, people could think that Deep Blue Junior is a version of Junior that >runs on the RS6000 chip or somesuch. Someone like Robert would never think that >since he is an expert in this field. But, someone who is not an expert could be >confused. as I said, you can't just 'claim' a trademark. There is a definite registration process, papers to fill out, you have to pick the 'look' (font, surrounding stuff, etc). You have an attorney file the papers. The trademark office then researches the trademark to make sure it doesn't infringe on prior trademarks that have already been awarded, you have to pay a fairly substantial fee to have it registered if it clears, etc. IE it isn't like the 'implicit copyright' you have on text you write. It is a totally different ballgame, very similar to obtaining a patent. > >Now, this should not be a major issue UNTIL Dr. Hsu attempts to sell Deep Blue >Junior in the marketplace. At that point in time, I would not be surprised if >Amir did not take him to court over it since it is obvious that regardless of >when Dr. Hsu gave Deep Blue Junior it's name, Amir's product arrived in the >market WAY before DB Jr. Where does this come from? DB Junior won't ever be sold. It is a specific machine at IBM headquarters. The thing he is talking about building/selling would be _very_ unlikely to be able to use the name "deep blue" at all, as I can _guarantee_ you that IBM protected that via trademark application just as soon as they came up with the name. They could hardly stop Hsu from designing his own new chess chip and selling it, but they would certainly take issue with the name "Deep Blue" as any part of the product name since IBM owns that trademark. And you keep mentioning "taking him to court". Do you _know_ whether or not Amir owns the rights to a trademark of "Junior"? IE in what country was it filed? Was it run thru the national approval process for that country? Was it an international trademark application? I'd suspect "none of the above" which renders this moot. > >KarinsDad :)
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.