Author: Peter McKenzie
Date: 16:02:58 02/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 16, 2003 at 17:17:30, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On February 16, 2003 at 17:09:20, Peter McKenzie wrote: > >>On February 16, 2003 at 16:25:07, Drexel,Michael wrote: >> >>>On February 16, 2003 at 15:15:33, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>> >>>>On February 16, 2003 at 12:10:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 16, 2003 at 07:59:54, Amir Ban wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 15, 2003 at 13:06:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I disagree with the "played like a super-GM" player, however. I doubt you >>>>>>>will find _any_ 2200 FIDE player that would play as badly as DJ played in >>>>>>>the first three games, up until move 30 or so. Game 1 would not have been >>>>>>>played by any 2000 player I know, myself included. So saying that it has >>>>>>>super-GM positional understanding is _way_ _way_ offbase. Yes, it played >>>>>>>good moves at times. But it also played _horrible_ moves at times. And I >>>>>>>am not just talking about tactically horrible moves such as the blunders that >>>>>>>Kasparov dropped on the board, I am talking about moves such as taking the >>>>>>>g-pawn and getting exposed to a horrific attack. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I can't agree with any of this. >>>>>> >>>>>>It would be good to back the statement that Junior played the "first three >>>>>>games, up until move 30 or so" worse than 2200 with some concrete examples of >>>>>>where a 2200 player would play better. The three games lasted 27, 30 & 36 moves, >>>>>>so what does this mean at all ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Take game 1. I don't know of _anybody_ that would play like that, except >>>>>for some computers. Totally lost. >>>>> >>>>>Take game 2. Every GM criticized the idea of "winning the exchange" instantly. >>>>>It took me (and other lowly humans) a lot longer to conclude "this looks very >>>>>dangerous for white, where prior to accepting we all thought white had a better >>>>>position. >>>>> >>>>>Take game 3. Taking the g-pawn to open a file in your own king's face. Did >>>>>you hear _any_ IM/GM player that thought that was a good move? I didn't and >>>>>we had _several_ on ICC. >>>> >>>>I believe your comments on game 3 are much too simplistic. There are many >>>>examples in chess where one player exposes himself to an attack knowing that at >>>>least one of the following holds: >>>> >>>>- reasonable material compensation (the classic way to combat a gambit is to >>>>grab the pawn, and give it back later when it suits you best) >>>>- reasonable positional compensation >>>> >>>>This is the modern dynamic chess style: overcoming the stereotyped evaluation of >>>>a chess position to find the resources hidden beneath the surface. >>>> >>>>A good example is the poisoned pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf. It would >>>>be easy to simply dismiss this as a silly pawn grab, and I believe that many GMs >>>>were highly skeptical when it was first introduced. But history has shown it a >>>>viable defense. White has many attacking options but also has problems on the >>>>dark squares, a weaker centre, and a pawn is a pawn. >>>> >>>>I have studied this game 3 in some depth and certainly taking the g-pawn was a >>>>reasonable move. As well as netting the pawn black was able to gain counterplay >>>>against the white king which was rather loose in the centre. >>>> >>>>Was it ultimately sound? Thats hard to say, but it is definitely the sort of >>>>move a Kortchnoi or a Fischer might have played. >>>> >>>><snip> >>> >>>I think Bob should criticize the move 9...0-0 rather than 10...Nxg4 in game 3. >>>9...0-0 is IMO a mistake. Chessbase native crafty 19.03 likes the stronger move: >>>9...Bb7. Black should castle short ONLY if white castles short first. >>>10...Nxg4 is of course reasonable. The moves 10...h6 and 10...g6 >>>have obviously also drawbacks. >>> >>>However the game 3 has nothing in common with the poisoned pawn variation. >>>Where is your counterplay after the simple 14.Bxe4 (14.Bxh6 was a mistake)? >>>There is no such counterplay except black would play 14...Nxe4 15.Bxh6 Bf5. >>>This complicated line is better for white. If you dont agree give a variation >>>please. Black has to show compensation for the piece. >> >>Right now I am unable to analyse a chess position, but I don't think I need to. >>You are talking about complex variations beginning 8-10 ply away from the move >>being discussed. That already suggests that things were not quite as simple as >>Bob seemed to think they were. >> >>>Junior wanted to play 14...Kh8 and after that white has big advantage. >>>The King simply gets into perfect safety by castling long. >>>The variation was unsound. Fischer or Kortchnoi would never play 9...0-0 >>>after 9.Bd2, with the obvious intention to castle long. >> >>I'm not sure if you are trying to refute my main point, which was: Nxg4 was not >>the terrible move that Bob said it was. >> >>To put this more strongly: Nxg4 is the sort of move a strong GM might play. >> > > >Fantastic. Nxg4 is bad. It leads to White's advantage, as proven >by Michael, now you insist that Nxg4 still was the "best" move. Yes, but not in Seems you are getting pretty excited and starting to imagine things. Please show me where I said 'that Nxg4 still was the "best" move'. I said Nxg4 is a reasonable move, a move so reasonable that a strong GM might have played it if given the chance. Are you trying to disagree with me on this point? >a good line! Best in a bad line is still a "bad" move. You follow me? >Michael then argued against 0-0. I said the same. The key move of the line must >be earlier because after Nxg4 it's bad. Sure O-O might have been a mistake, so what. > >What is difficult for you in this argumentation.Please tell us. > >Rolf Tueschen > > > >>> >>>Michael
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