Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:08:15 04/09/03
Go up one level in this thread
On April 09, 2003 at 20:17:14, Aaron Gordon wrote: >On April 09, 2003 at 18:01:50, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On April 09, 2003 at 15:36:58, Aaron Gordon wrote: >> >>>On April 09, 2003 at 12:14:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On April 09, 2003 at 11:04:51, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 09, 2003 at 09:24:01, Charles Worthington wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 09, 2003 at 00:46:15, Charles Worthington wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 09, 2003 at 00:34:10, Pavel Blokhine wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 09, 2003 at 00:17:16, Charles Worthington wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On April 08, 2003 at 23:53:06, Charles Worthington wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On April 08, 2003 at 23:41:44, Pavel Blokhine wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I am looking to buy a new computer. I will be using it for many things, but >>>>>>>>>>>mostly for computer video games and chess online. So what computer would be >>>>>>>>>>>best? TheMicro Express MicroFlex 27A Powered by AMD's 2.17-GHz Athlon XP 2700+ >>>>>>>>>>>processor and 512MB of DDR400 SDRAM, the MicroFlex 27A earned a blistering score >>>>>>>>>>>of 130 on PC WorldBench 4 tests, for $2254 or a Dell Dimension 8250• 3.06-GHz >>>>>>>>>>>Pentium 4 processor• 200GB hard drive• 18-inch LCD monitor• 128MB ATI Radeon >>>>>>>>>>>9700 Pro graphics• 16X DVD-ROM drive, DVD+RW/+R drive at $3158? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>If video games and chess are your main uses for the machine I would think the >>>>>>>>>>AMD would be the better choice...especially for the money....I own a dimension >>>>>>>>>>8250 and while it surely performs well it was hardly worth the additional cost >>>>>>>>>>were i to only use it for chess. But in the end it really is just a question of >>>>>>>>>>personal preference. If both companies offer comparable service and support then >>>>>>>>>>its really a toss of the coin. >>>>>>>>>>Charles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>P.S. The decision will also depend on what you plan for the machine in the >>>>>>>>>future. If you want to upgrade to a faster cpu later on or overclock your >>>>>>>>>current one then the AMD is the only option for you. Dell boards do not support >>>>>>>>>overclocking and Intel is notorious for often changing the socket on their cpus. >>>>>>>>>So you can pretty much rule out upgrading the Dell at all without >>>>>>>>>some_major_expense. Speed wise you are not going to see a huge world of >>>>>>>>>differece between the two machines. Assuming no overclocking you will get close >>>>>>>>>to 1200 kNs running fritz 8 on either. The hyperthreading will give you a 10 to >>>>>>>>>12% boost with the intel running Deep Fritz 7 but the strength difference is >>>>>>>>>negligible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Charles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks. But how do i overclock an AMD and is it safe? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Well, I am not an expert in overclocking but for mild overclocking, where no >>>>>>>additional cooling is required, i think you can just bump the cpu clock speed up >>>>>>>in bios say 10% or so safely (my figure may be inaccuarate). You may have >>>>>>>configure a jumper or two on the system board as well I am not certain about the >>>>>>>design of these boards. Aaron Gordon would be the one to pose this question to >>>>>>>as he has extensive knowledge of these boards and overclocking techniques. Sorry >>>>>>>I couldn't be more help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The same also applies to the dual 3.06 xeon system you emailed me the specs to >>>>>>as we have already discussed above. The xeon systems have decreased in price a >>>>>>bit though. For chess I would recommend a minimum of 1GB of RAM and 2 would be >>>>>>even better but like all things related to the computer it is a matter of what >>>>>>you can afford to sink into one. Dell's business machines are more flexible as >>>>>>far as upgradability than their residential machines however they still cannot >>>>>>be clocked up. My machine is automatically upgraded each time a newer or faster >>>>>>part comes out as per my contract with Dell. The day after the part is released >>>>>>a technician comes to install it. This contract includes motherboards, cpu's, >>>>>>and memory only. As far as overclocking goes there is little need to overclock a >>>>>>high end AMD or Xeon dual. They are both quite fast as it is and with the upper >>>>>>end cpu's if you try anything more than mild overclocking you will need >>>>>>additional cooling because these cpu's are already clocked close to the upper >>>>>>end of what the engineers say is the limit of the part. Taking a 2 GHZ part to >>>>>>2.5 GHz is much simpler than taking a 3GHz part to 3.5GHz. Like I said earlier >>>>>>though, these are questions best left to Aaron Gordon or one of the guys here >>>>>>who specialize in overclocking. Personally, with the current advances in cpu >>>>>>technology i think overclocking the high end parts is a bit silly when there are >>>>>>faster and faster cpu's coming to market constantly. Why take the risk when it >>>>>>isn't needed? Most overclocking is done on the lower end chips to bring them up >>>>>>to where the higher end chips are without putting out the expense for the high >>>>>>end one. I think Aaron would agree that overclocking a high end chip past it's >>>>>>safety margin would be unwise. >>>>>> >>>>>>Sincerely, Charles >>>>> >>>>>Overclocking a high-end chip is fine as long as you know what you're doing. Also >>>>>as long as you run stability tests to ensure whatever cpu you're overclocking is >>>>>completely stable it doesn't matter if you're overclocking an AthlonXP 3000+ or >>>>>a 386SX-16MHz. Stable is stable. >>>> >>>> >>>>_IF_ it is verified. This is not easy. It means you have to run a program that >>>>specifically >>>>tests "edge conditions" by running sliding 1 patterns thru every instruction, to >>>>see if there is >>>>any unexpected cross-talk at higher frequencies, etc. >>>> >>>>Just because it runs some application correctly, does _not_ mean it will run >>>>_all_ applications >>>>correctly. >>> >>>With all of the tests on my box that I've done I'd be willing to put money down >>>that it is 100% stable. I'll put up a linux shell to that particular box and you >>>can try everything in your power to crash it via cpu/memory/chipset/etc >>>instabilities, it's just not going to happen. >> >> >>You could be right. But then, does the _average_ overclocker do that much >>testing? >> >>Nope... > > >Well, every overclocker I know runs either burnk7 or prime95. Both of which will >knock your box down QUICK if there are any instabilities. There are sets of >tests people run. Usually it's Prime95/Burnk7 for the CPU, memtest86 for the >memory and hours of 3DMark2001SE for videocard testing (when overclocking the >videocard or AGP bus). > >Current Nforce2 boards allow you to lock the PCI and AGP at default speeds so >you don't have to worry about pushing your videocard and PCI devices beyond >specs. Thats something I really don't like doing, but have done it in the past >because it was necessarry to get higher bus speeds. > >Most people just going from say 2400+ to 2600+ really won't need much testing, >the chips can do a little bit without hardly any risk of instabilities. It's >just when you start pushing far above the manufacturers top cpu is when you need >the extreme testing. Mainly hardcore overclockers do this and they run the same >tests I do. I'm not going to comment on those programs. However, they very likely do _not_ represent the worst case for catching problems such as slightly long gate delays, or cross-coupling on traces, or instabilities at certain clock speeds. It's non-trivial and requires specific testing rigors. A prime number tester is serendipitous at best. It almost certainly doesn't execute all instructions, which is a problem... Not to mention all instructions with specific "tough" bit patterns (many adjacent 1 bits, many adjacent 0 bits, sliding 0101/etc patterns... etc.)
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