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Subject: Re: nullmove and tactics

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 12:30:32 03/24/04

Go up one level in this thread


On March 24, 2004 at 14:32:01, Dann Corbit wrote:

>On March 24, 2004 at 02:11:34, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On March 23, 2004 at 21:28:14, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>
>>>On March 23, 2004 at 18:18:51, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 23, 2004 at 17:28:17, martin fierz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On March 23, 2004 at 17:13:46, Aivaras Juzvikas wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On March 23, 2004 at 16:40:46, Renze Steenhuisen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On March 23, 2004 at 16:38:28, Aivaras Juzvikas wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>forgot to mention, i dont try null move on 0 ply
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Than what's your test set?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>test set?i just let two versions of my engine play each other a couple of 15 0
>>>>>>games, the result is either a draw or a win for the one w/o null move, even tho
>>>>>>it searches deeper as i already mentioned
>>>>>
>>>>>"a couple" meaning...?
>>>>>
>>>>>if it's two games, forget it. if it's 10 games, forget it too. start believing
>>>>>it when it's 100 games...
>>>>
>>>>I think that if you do not get improvement with null move based on 10 games then
>>>>there is good chance that you have a bug in the implementation.
>>>
>>>Null move, implemented incorrectly, can make the program play much weaker most
>>>of the time but even much better some of the time.
>>>
>>>Suppose (for instance) that R=4/6 is selected instead of 2/3 by some accident.
>>
>>
>>It means that it is not implemented correctly.
>>In the relevant case I understood that R=2 was used.
>>
>>>After ten games, it might look very good because of random chance.  But 100
>>>games would show that it was bad.
>>>
>>>I would never believe any result of less than 30 games can be trusted.
>>
>>I do not suggest to trust result of 10 games to decide if there is an
>>improvement.
>>
>>I only say that there is a good reason to believe that there is a problem in the
>>implementation after seeing bad result in 10 games.
>>
>>I do not claim that you can be sure about it but the question is what to do
>>next(play more games or look at the code to see if there is some problem in the
>>code).
>
>The point I was making is that it might look better, even though it is really
>much worse.  Especially with a thing like null move, some positions would
>benefit greatly from massive pruning, but others would miss very important
>variations.
>
>So if after ten games you see 10-0, you might decide it is a great improvement
>and even tweak something else.  That would be a mistake.

I think that 10-0 is a very significant result.

6-4 or even 7-3 may be misleading but not 10-0.

Uri



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