Author: Pete Galati
Date: 21:13:04 04/23/00
Go up one level in this thread
On April 23, 2000 at 23:53:38, Christophe Theron wrote: >On April 23, 2000 at 18:31:34, Pete Galati wrote: > >>On April 23, 2000 at 18:07:46, Dan Ellwein wrote: >> >>>On April 23, 2000 at 16:29:19, Pete Galati wrote: >>> >>>>On April 23, 2000 at 15:50:22, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 04:53:14, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 04:12:12, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 02:31:28, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 02:12:19, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 01:53:55, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 01:38:20, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 01:31:17, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 00:48:44, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:46:28, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 15:02:19, Chessfun wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:49:59, Pete Galati wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:20:57, A.L.Mourik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hello dear CCC friends, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Although earlier reports from e.g. Jouni Uski, suggest an enormous increase in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>strenght for Crafty 17.10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nuun 2 match result Fritz6 against Crafty 17.10 ends in a very clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>29,5-10,5!! victory for Fritz6. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Played on PII 400 8mb for HT, Timecontrol 5 min + 3 sec per move. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There isn't generally an enormous increase in strength from version to version >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of any program, that's unrealistic to expect there to be. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your time controls are a bit short there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pete >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why didn't you say or ask that of Jouni when he posted? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as all he said was blitz, that may even have been faster >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sorry, I don't read all posts, this one caught my eye because it was at the top >>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the board. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>You had posted in the thread I referred to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Which was Sensation Crafty 17-10 beats F6a in nunn1 . >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>You'd need to post the html of the post where I responded to that, setting the >>>>>>>>>>>>filters at 7 days and doing a search for "Sensation Crafty 17-10" does not turn >>>>>>>>>>>>anything up. I don't recall responding in such a thread. But if you're >>>>>>>>>>>>attempting to put me on trial for some comment that I may or may not have made >>>>>>>>>>>>about Crafty, then you simply have too much time on your hands. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>It is fairly simple to set search for author. >>>>>>>>>>>You made no comment for a trial, it was the lack of request >>>>>>>>>>>for the time control of the blitz games then the statement in >>>>>>>>>>>this thread that it needs longer time controls. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>But, since your last comment obviously means you take every question >>>>>>>>>>>of your postings as an offense and feel the need to take a stab at >>>>>>>>>>>anyone who questions anything you write, even the obvious questions >>>>>>>>>>>posed by Christophe that you fail to understand, then don't worry I >>>>>>>>>>>won't bother to reply in future. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Ok, I searched for "Jouni" and found what you're talking about, but you left out >>>>>>>>>>a ":" when you quoted the name of the thread so my search didn't turn up >>>>>>>>>>anything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Wouldn't matter what thread I quoted. A simple search by author >>>>>>>>>would give you all posts you had made. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>First of all, in that thread, I was responding to a comment that Fernando made, >>>>>>>>>>not anything that Jouni said. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You posted in a thread about crafty beating F6 at nunn 1 in blitz. >>>>>>>>>You never questioned the time controls as you did in this thread. >>>>>>>>>The difference Crafty was alledged to have won in the other thread. >>>>>>>>>It lost in this one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You're still trying to ignore that I was responding to Fernando's post, and not >>>>>>>>to Jouni's, I don't see that bothering anyone else. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Second, I didn't take back anything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Who asked you to take back. A simply asking the same question in the >>>>>>>>>other thread was apt. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Third, Christophe was not being clear what he was asking "why" about. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The question he asked is simple enough. You said these blitz times were >>>>>>>>>too fast and that they are too fast to judge the strength of a program. >>>>>>>>>He asked, why and can you explain. Since you had made these statements >>>>>>>>>you must have evidence that these statements are correct. >>>>>>>>>Seems simple to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No, _you're_ asking that question, Christophe didn't, he wasn't clear what he >>>>>>>>was asking about. Blitz games don't allow a program to search deep enough, >>>>>>>>that's obvious enough that the question does not need to be asked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is a very frightening answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is the earth flat? Yes it is, that's obvious enough that the question does not >>>>>>>need to be asked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Pete, I fear you are not on the right track anymore. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Christophe >>>>>> >>>>>>Are you saying that Blitz games are an adaquate test of a program's strength? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Several points to think about: >>>>> >>>>>1) What is the only authorized time control to use to decide program's strength? >>>>>Who decided this? >>>>> >>>>>2) What is the time control most used in reality by chess programs users? >>>>> >>>>>3) Where is your data about the difference in playing strength between blitz >>>>>and, say, 40 moves in 2 hours, of any program, on a significant number of games? >>>>> >>>>>4) When you play a blitz on a very very fast computer, it is like playing the >>>>>same game at slow time controls on a much slower computer. What does "blitz" >>>>>mean in a world where you can find very fast and very slow computers? >>>>> >>>>>5) What is the difference in search depth between a blitz game and a slow time >>>>>control game? Why do you expect that one program will benefit more than its >>>>>opponent from this deeper search? >>>>> >>>>>6) What evidence do you have that the curve of "relative strength vs time >>>>>control" is monoton? I mean it is possible that prog A is better than prog B at >>>>>blitz, then prog B is better at 40 moves in 2 hours, then prog A is again better >>>>>at move in 1 day. If you take for granted that prog A wins at blitz, but would >>>>>lose at 40 moves in 2 hours, you cannot reject my proposition so easily. And >>>>>which program is stronger in this case? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The assumption that the relative strength of chess programs changes with the >>>>>time controls used is one of the many legends that people like to believe in. >>>>> >>>>>It might or might not be true for a given pair of programs, but it is NOT a >>>>>general rule. You can assert something like this only if you have done a careful >>>>>and long experiment. >>>>> >>>>>The best guess when you have not checked it carefully is to assume that the time >>>>>control does not affect the relative strength of 2 programs. By assuming this, >>>>>you will be right most of the time. >>>>> >>>>>Take a look at Chessfun's current experiment. While each match is not long >>>>>enough to get a good statistical measure, what does it suggest? If you want more >>>>>data, it's easy. Take some SSDF matches, and replay them at home at blitz time >>>>>control. >>>>> >>>>>In short, I'm not saying that blitz is always an adequate test of program's >>>>>strength. I'm just saying that it is very unwise to assume it is not, and I >>>>>don't see any reason to reject blitz matches results. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Christophe >>>> >>>>You can stop trying to wave around this "evidence" buzz word at me since you >>>>don't provide any solid "evidence" that I'm incorrect. >>>> >>>>Blitz games _are_ adaquate for their entertainment value, that's about it. >>>> >>>>Pete >>> >>> >>>Pete... >>> >>>Christophe just gave you 6 points to think about... >>> >>>i think your response may-be a little lacking... >>> >>>regards - pilgrimdan >> >>No, he has attempted to cloud the issue and made several attempts to imply that >>I'm wrong by his asking for "evidence". > > > >I have attempted to give you some points that were supposed to make you think >about your unjustified assertion. > >But if you don't want to think about what I say, no problem. > > > > >> It's very easy to ask for "evidence" >>and then not really provide any proving that I'm wrong about blitz games not >>being adaquate to measure a programs strength. >> >>All I'm saying is that blitz games are not an adaquate measure of a program's >>strength, I didn't ask him to type his fingers raw trying to provide too much to >>stay on the topic. > > > >You are right, I don't see anymore why I used my energy to bother you with a >topic that is so clear and definitely closed for you. > > > > >>But me & Christophe do agree on that "I'm not saying that blitz is always an >>adequate test of program's strength" so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead >>arguement. > > > >Apparently, you did not understand me. > > > > >> The problem is that there's a couple people who perceive me as >>someone who's saying "reject blitz matches results", this isn't the case, you >>need to take the blitz games for what they are, fun little games, not try to >>make a case about how they're the true measure of a Chess program. > > > >Okay, you definitely did not understand and you don't want to anyway. > >No problem. Happy is the man who never doubts. > > > > Christophe That's only your take on the matter, read this post, Bob sums up the situation very well, but you don't appear to have a good grasp on it from what I can tell http://site2936.dellhost.com/forums/1/message.shtml?107372 Pete
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.