Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 06:17:41 02/24/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 24, 2003 at 08:58:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 24, 2003 at 05:36:11, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>On February 23, 2003 at 20:34:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On February 23, 2003 at 18:17:02, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>> >>>>As usual I research the more general problems, since I am not a born programmer. >>>> >>>>When I see that many people in CC support around 200 amateurs - that's how they >>>>are called- who created FREE programs, and certain spin doctors who write about >>>>"difficulties" for the "professional" experts, I see several questions. >>>> >>>> >>>>1) Who created the many features say of the ChessBase database program? FREE >>>>amateurs or professionals? >>>> >>>>2) Could someone tell me what feature, just 1 example because I don't know any, >>>>was at first created by amateurs? >>> >>>The chess programs themselves. >>> >>>Endgame databases. >>> >>>Opening books. >>> >>>Graphical displays. >>> >>>game annotation features >>> >>>ECO opening classification by the computer. >>> >>>The ability to search thru large opening databases, citing win/lose/draw >>>percentages, who played the game, etc. >>> >>>I can't think of _much_ that was _not_ created by "amateurs"... >> >>Stupid me! Didn't get the exact questioning. Ok, let's take the display. The >>base of such a feature was inveted long ago, but then it's a totally different >>thing what content, chess related, is concerned. And I was only talking about >>such details. From the perspective of chessplayers. >> >>You deny the cloning of ChessBase features because their code is secret but I'm >>not satisfied with such an answer! With cloning I don't mean the exact copy of a >>product. I meant the re-coding of a feature that was INVENTED by a professional >>company. > >I can't think of anything that was _invented_ by a commercial company, in the >realm of computer chess. IE toss out an idea you think originated with them >and I'll see if I can find a reference to the amateur that originally used >the idea. Remember, the first computer chess tournament was held in 1970. >There was _no_ commercial computer chess programs around until the micros >came along, many years later. > > > > >> >>The whole debate and your short-cut answer gives me the impression that in chess >>there is no respect for the creations for the benefit of mankind, here chess >>people. What is the exact meaning of copyright? > >If you write code, it is _yours_. Nobody can copy the code itself. "look >and feel" is another issue, otherwise we would not have windows at all nor >the macintosh, since Xerox developed that years ago. > > >> >>NB that I do NOT have programs like Crafty in mind a more academic work in >>progress with open source! >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>3) I read that people adore FREE programs like ARENA. They are proud that ARENA >>>>has all the features, or almost all, ChessBase also has; I ask if ARENA is a >>>>clone of ChessBase8? >>> >>>Impossible. Chessbase doesn't publish their source. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>4) As a more technical question: Is a smart amateur programmer able to program a >>>>clone of professional products? Or is cloning impossible if the code is secret? >>>> >>>>5) Could someone show - perhaps for other fields - what results out of the so >>>>called copying of professional ideas and products? Isn't it the consequence that >>>>the professional creative people become exhausted? >>>> >>>>6) Then, is't it a consequence that then also the amateurs have no longer >>>>something to copy? [NB I do NOT say that amateurs only copy all day long. See >>>>point 4 where I ask if copying is possible.] >>>> >>>>7) Who could tell me how the development in a field continues in case of >>>>amateurs cloning? >>> >>>Amateurs exist in _all_ fields and all disciplines. So I don't get your >>>point... >> >>See above. Amateurs in that sense that they "copy" existing features of a chess >>software. And then offer it for free to the users. I don't see the reason for >>such a nonsense or it is for academical examinations. > >I don't understand "such a nonsense". I can't think of a single thing that >a pro chess program did _first_. They might have taken an idea and refined >it or expanded it, but I'd be hard-pressed to point to something they developed >as new and unique, that wasn't done by some amateur/academic previously. NOt >that they couldn't, but the amateurs were simply "first" because they came first >in the development phase. > > > > > >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>8) In short: I see the danger of less progress and NOT- what the supporters and >>>>fans are doing - a higher coloring of a scene. >>> >>>Makes no sense to me. In the beginning there were _nothing_ but amateur >>>chess programs around. They started it all. >> >>You are saying that ChessBase programs are just a copy themselves? > >Using a weak definition, yes. I watched a computer chess tournament at the >1970 ACM conference. Commercial computer chess was unknown. 10 years later >it was just getting started. 10 years + after the amateur engines were already >playing. Horror! What you say is a complete turning of what I (and possibly many users) believed. I always believed in the philosophy that pro's had more time and all so that THEY led the 'development progress'. a) THen is it all tuning against the known amateurs that still professional progs win in tournaments? Or what is the secret? I always read that they had that bit of advantage and believed that bit meant innovations.However without knowing them. b) Well here is a questio also to Alistair: The trick that CB [NB don't confuse with Fritz, I speak about the database] has these engines that you could use for the different moves in the notation, either main line or variations, this sort of jumping and at the same time with different engines on different moves - who invented it?? Rolf Tueschen > > > >> >>Rolf Tueschen >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>What do you think? >>>> >>>>Rolf Tueschen
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