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Subject: Re: Was the List 5.12 issue ever cleared?

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 23:39:50 02/26/04

Go up one level in this thread

On February 26, 2004 at 16:17:16, Albert Silver wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I was wondering whether the accusations regarding List 5.12 had been clarified
>and if so what was the result? The program was removed from the World
>Championship, so it was clearly a very serious accusation, yet I still see doubt
>on its integrity mentioned regarding its potential inclusion in the SSDF. I
>admit I'm confused. This wasn't last week, so what's the deal?
>
>                                         Albert

Nothing has come out.

Here is my opinion:

List is completely different structure wise (not bitboard based).

However, some amounts of crafty machinery may have been used (guessing, based on
object module names in the older versions of List).  However, let me temper my
statement.  There is not enough evidence to show that List is a clone of crafty.
 All the evidence I know of is circumstantial leanings.

From the List binaries, we can pull these strings:

List 4.60:
F:\List\460\A10\attacks.c
F:\List\460\A10\bench.c
F:\List\460\A10\captures.c
F:\List\460\A10\chessboard.c
F:\List\460\A10\hash.c
F:\List\460\A10\init.c
F:\List\460\A10\io.c
F:\List\460\A10\list.c
F:\List\460\A10\make.c
F:\List\460\A10\moves.c
F:\List\460\A10\next.c
F:\List\460\A10\opening.c
F:\List\460\A10\pawnhash.c
F:\List\460\A10\phase.c
F:\List\460\A10\ponder.c
F:\List\460\A10\recog.c
F:\List\460\A10\score.c
F:\List\460\A10\search.c
F:\List\460\A10\searchr.c
F:\List\460\A10\sort.c
F:\List\460\A10\test.c
F:\List\460\A10\timer.c
F:\List\460\A10\undo.c
F:\List\460\A10\utility.c

List 4.61:
F:\List\470\A8\attacks.c
F:\List\470\A8\bench.c
F:\List\470\A8\captures.c
F:\List\470\A8\chessboard.c
F:\List\470\A8\hash.c
F:\List\470\A8\init.c
F:\List\470\A8\io.c
F:\List\470\A8\list.c
F:\List\470\A8\make.c
F:\List\470\A8\moves.c
F:\List\470\A8\next.c
F:\List\470\A8\pawnhash.c
F:\List\470\A8\phase.c
F:\List\470\A8\ponder.c
F:\List\470\A8\recog.c
F:\List\470\A8\score.c
F:\List\470\A8\search.c
F:\List\470\A8\searchr.c
F:\List\470\A8\sort.c
F:\List\470\A8\test.c
F:\List\470\A8\timer.c
F:\List\470\A8\undo.c
F:\List\470\A8\utility.c

List 5.01:
F:\List\Native\4\attacks.c
F:\List\Native\4\board.c
F:\List\Native\4\captures.c
F:\List\Native\4\hash.c
F:\List\Native\4\init.c
F:\List\Native\4\interface.c
F:\List\Native\4\list.c
F:\List\Native\4\make.c
F:\List\Native\4\moves.c
F:\List\Native\4\next.c
F:\List\Native\4\pawns.c
F:\List\Native\4\phase.c
F:\List\Native\4\recog.c
F:\List\Native\4\score.c
F:\List\Native\4\search.c
F:\List\Native\4\sort.c
F:\List\Native\4\speed.c
F:\List\Native\4\time.c
F:\List\Native\4\undo.c
F:\List\Native\4\utility.c

List 5.04:
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\attacks.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\board.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\captures.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\evasions.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\hash.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\init.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\interface.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\io.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\list.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\make.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\moves.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\next.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\pawns.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\phase.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\root.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\score.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\search.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\speed.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\timer.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\uint64.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\undo.c
F:\Dezember 2002\Referenz List 504\Native\utility.c


List 5.12:
Has the symbols stripped.

Now, most of the module names are pretty generic.  And many of the crafty module
names are not present (e.g. the EPD stuff).  However, there are also some
striking similarities.  An example is searchr.c [in the List versions 4.x],
which is a name unique to crafty modules as far as I have ever seen.

His evaluation debugger uses symbol names very similar to those in crafty, such
as:

 material_score
 pawn_structure_score
 passed_pawn_score
 king_safety_score
 interactive_score
 total_score

It seems that he has studied crafty carefully in the very least.  It is also
possible that he simply modeled List's evaluation factor names after those he
saw in crafty.  It would not even be necessary to examine the source code to do
that.

My theory is that he may have started with crafty some long time ago, and did
major surgery.  As time went by, the program became quite different.  However,
when he was called out on the carpet, perhaps he realized that the crafty
heritage would be strong enough to be considered a clone.

The silence now is rather alarming, since so much time has gone by.

So I am guessing nothing will ever be said about it.  It would be nice if he
would clarify things for us.

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