Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 21:05:27 05/20/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 19, 2001 at 15:56:53, Vine Smith wrote: >On May 19, 2001 at 12:29:46, Sune Larsson wrote: > >>On May 19, 2001 at 11:33:42, Vine Smith wrote: >> >>>On May 19, 2001 at 10:46:48, Sune Larsson wrote: >>> >>>>On May 19, 2001 at 10:15:06, Vine Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 08:52:03, Sune Larsson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 06:22:23, Vine Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 05:26:07, Jeroen Noomen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Fritz - Gambit Tiger Leiden round 4 >>>>>>>>------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. d5 Na5 7. Nf3 Bd6 >>>>>>>>8. Qa4+ Bd7 9. Qxa5 a6 10. Na4 Qe7 11. a3 Nxe4 12. Bxc4 b5 13. Bd3 Nf6 >>>>>>>>14. Nc3 e4 15. Nxe4 Nxe4 16. O-O O-O 17. Rfe1 f5 18. h3 Qf7 19. Rad1 Rfe8 >>>>>>>>20. Bc2 g6 21. b4 Nc3 22. Rd3 Qg7 23. Bd1 Ne4 24. Bd4 Qf7 25. Rde3 g5 >>>>>>>>26. Bc2 g4 27. hxg4 fxg4 28. Bxe4 gxf3 29. Bxf3 Qf4 30. Bc5 Qh2+ 31. Kf1 >>>>>>>>Bf4 32. Rxe8+ Bxe8 33. Be3 Bd6 34. Ke2 Bh5 35. Rd1 Qe5 36. Rd4 Bxf3+ >>>>>>>>37. gxf3 Qf5 38. Rd3 h5 39. a4 h4 40. axb5 h3 41. Qa1 h2 42. b6 cxb6 >>>>>>>>43. Qh1 Rc8 44. f4 Qh5+ 45. Kf1 Rc2 46. Bd2 Bxf4 47. d6 Rxd2 48. Rxd2 Bxd2 >>>>>>>>49. d7 Qd1+ 50. Kg2 Qxh1+ 0-1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Astonishing positional suicide -- few, if any, humans would ever play 21.b4, >>>>>>>entombing the queen. Of course, Tiger could afford to open the game in any way >>>>>>>it pleased after that. It would be interesting to see if the lack of interest in >>>>>>>liberating the queen is duplicated by many programs; correct or not, I would >>>>>>>have been so concerned about this offside post that I would have played 17.Qe1 >>>>>>>immediately. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The terms "mobility" and "king safety" comes to mind after this kamikaze... >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I made a quick check on PIII 800 with 128 Mb hash. 4 min ponder. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fritz 5.32 21.b3 and later plays b3-b4. >>>>>> Fritz 6 Old 21.b3 >>>>>> Fritz 6 (Newest) 21.b4 >>>>>> Deep Fritz 21.b4 >>>>>> Hiarcs 7.32 21.b4 >>>>>> >>>>>> Then we have some non closers: >>>>>> >>>>>> Crafty 18.08 21.Bc1 >>>>>> Shredder 5 21.h4 >>>>>> Gandalf 4.32h 21.Kf1 or 21.Re2 (shifting after 4.02) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sune >>>>> >>>>>Horrible that not only Fritz, but also Deep Fritz (this program is going to play >>>>>Kramnik???) and Hiarcs (with something of a good reputation for positional play, >>>>>I thought) commit this blunder. Also, any program that doesn't evaluate the >>>>>resulting position at something like -2.00 or lower has nothing to be proud of. >>>>>I'm putting together a suite of positional problems to evaluate programs' >>>>>understanding or lack thereof, and I'll have to include this position as an >>>>>"avoid move" type of problem (even though it's a little unfair to Fritz, which >>>>>will of course fail this one). >>>> >>>> >>>>>Can you tell if Gandalf wants to play 21.Re2 in order to follow up with 22.Qe1? >>>>>If so, that would mark it as the only program so far to demonstrate some concern >>>>>about the queen's situation. >>>>> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Vine >>>> >>>> Gandalf ponders about lines like 21.Re2 Nf6 22.Ng5 Qe7 23.Qc3, but >>>> after some 8 minutes again shifts to 21.Kf1 b4 22.a4 = (Gandalf) >>>> >>>> Sune >>> >>>Ugh! This suggests some generalized failure of program evaluation routines. Even >>>in Gandalf's line with 21...b4 22.a4, having the queen cut off in this manner >>>seems fatal. I'm going to investigate whether very long-term searches will >>>correct this fault, which would at least give these programs the hope that with >>>the faster hardware of tomorrow, they could avoid such disastrous decisions. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Vine >> >> Long-term searches here would sure be interesting - as your coming suite of >> positional problems. The latter must be pure gold for the programmers, if >> it's possible to pinpoint down just what the positions are all about - and >> transform them into programming language... >> >> Sune > >Fritz 6e at 17 ply still doesn't think it has done a bad thing. It currently >believes that in reply to 21.b4, Black should play 21...Re7, evaluating the >position at +0.03. In the entire line it gives, there is no effort made to free >the queen from her prison. I'm hoping that it will see the light within the next >3 or 4 ply -- or come up with some astounding method of liberating the queen >with no bad side effects. >I started working on the positional suite in connection with a program a friend >of mine is going to write. I'm arguing for some radical new approach to >evaluation, but, indeed, the challenge is to formulate it in such a way that he >can code it successfully. Maybe I'll get lucky and stumble across a new >frontier. >The suite is meant to show that something new might be necessary. I have about >120 positions now, but I keep having to review and replace them after I look at >test runs. It's difficult -- unlike tactical problems, it's often impossible to >absolutely prove the validity of some positional continuations. So I try to find >positions where some particularly fine positional move has been endorsed and >explained by several IMs and/or GMs in varying sources. But also some very >elementary problems as well -- many programs have been failing these too. When I >have something consistent and grouped into useful themes for diagnostic >purposes, I'd be glad to release it in EPD format to anyone interested. > >Regards, >Vine Just as a note, crafty has a couple of terms here that are preventing it from falling into the b4 hole. 1. King safety doesn't like the queen stuck on the off-side of the board with no hope to get over to the kingside; 2. the usual blocked pawns/levers evaluation makes totally blocking things up very hard..
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