Author: Vine Smith
Date: 12:56:53 05/19/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 19, 2001 at 12:29:46, Sune Larsson wrote: >On May 19, 2001 at 11:33:42, Vine Smith wrote: > >>On May 19, 2001 at 10:46:48, Sune Larsson wrote: >> >>>On May 19, 2001 at 10:15:06, Vine Smith wrote: >>> >>>>On May 19, 2001 at 08:52:03, Sune Larsson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 06:22:23, Vine Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 05:26:07, Jeroen Noomen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Fritz - Gambit Tiger Leiden round 4 >>>>>>>------------------------------------- >>>>>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. d5 Na5 7. Nf3 Bd6 >>>>>>>8. Qa4+ Bd7 9. Qxa5 a6 10. Na4 Qe7 11. a3 Nxe4 12. Bxc4 b5 13. Bd3 Nf6 >>>>>>>14. Nc3 e4 15. Nxe4 Nxe4 16. O-O O-O 17. Rfe1 f5 18. h3 Qf7 19. Rad1 Rfe8 >>>>>>>20. Bc2 g6 21. b4 Nc3 22. Rd3 Qg7 23. Bd1 Ne4 24. Bd4 Qf7 25. Rde3 g5 >>>>>>>26. Bc2 g4 27. hxg4 fxg4 28. Bxe4 gxf3 29. Bxf3 Qf4 30. Bc5 Qh2+ 31. Kf1 >>>>>>>Bf4 32. Rxe8+ Bxe8 33. Be3 Bd6 34. Ke2 Bh5 35. Rd1 Qe5 36. Rd4 Bxf3+ >>>>>>>37. gxf3 Qf5 38. Rd3 h5 39. a4 h4 40. axb5 h3 41. Qa1 h2 42. b6 cxb6 >>>>>>>43. Qh1 Rc8 44. f4 Qh5+ 45. Kf1 Rc2 46. Bd2 Bxf4 47. d6 Rxd2 48. Rxd2 Bxd2 >>>>>>>49. d7 Qd1+ 50. Kg2 Qxh1+ 0-1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Astonishing positional suicide -- few, if any, humans would ever play 21.b4, >>>>>>entombing the queen. Of course, Tiger could afford to open the game in any way >>>>>>it pleased after that. It would be interesting to see if the lack of interest in >>>>>>liberating the queen is duplicated by many programs; correct or not, I would >>>>>>have been so concerned about this offside post that I would have played 17.Qe1 >>>>>>immediately. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The terms "mobility" and "king safety" comes to mind after this kamikaze... >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I made a quick check on PIII 800 with 128 Mb hash. 4 min ponder. >>>>> >>>>> Fritz 5.32 21.b3 and later plays b3-b4. >>>>> Fritz 6 Old 21.b3 >>>>> Fritz 6 (Newest) 21.b4 >>>>> Deep Fritz 21.b4 >>>>> Hiarcs 7.32 21.b4 >>>>> >>>>> Then we have some non closers: >>>>> >>>>> Crafty 18.08 21.Bc1 >>>>> Shredder 5 21.h4 >>>>> Gandalf 4.32h 21.Kf1 or 21.Re2 (shifting after 4.02) >>>>> >>>>> Sune >>>> >>>>Horrible that not only Fritz, but also Deep Fritz (this program is going to play >>>>Kramnik???) and Hiarcs (with something of a good reputation for positional play, >>>>I thought) commit this blunder. Also, any program that doesn't evaluate the >>>>resulting position at something like -2.00 or lower has nothing to be proud of. >>>>I'm putting together a suite of positional problems to evaluate programs' >>>>understanding or lack thereof, and I'll have to include this position as an >>>>"avoid move" type of problem (even though it's a little unfair to Fritz, which >>>>will of course fail this one). >>> >>> >>>>Can you tell if Gandalf wants to play 21.Re2 in order to follow up with 22.Qe1? >>>>If so, that would mark it as the only program so far to demonstrate some concern >>>>about the queen's situation. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Vine >>> >>> Gandalf ponders about lines like 21.Re2 Nf6 22.Ng5 Qe7 23.Qc3, but >>> after some 8 minutes again shifts to 21.Kf1 b4 22.a4 = (Gandalf) >>> >>> Sune >> >>Ugh! This suggests some generalized failure of program evaluation routines. Even >>in Gandalf's line with 21...b4 22.a4, having the queen cut off in this manner >>seems fatal. I'm going to investigate whether very long-term searches will >>correct this fault, which would at least give these programs the hope that with >>the faster hardware of tomorrow, they could avoid such disastrous decisions. >> >>Regards, >>Vine > > Long-term searches here would sure be interesting - as your coming suite of > positional problems. The latter must be pure gold for the programmers, if > it's possible to pinpoint down just what the positions are all about - and > transform them into programming language... > > Sune Fritz 6e at 17 ply still doesn't think it has done a bad thing. It currently believes that in reply to 21.b4, Black should play 21...Re7, evaluating the position at +0.03. In the entire line it gives, there is no effort made to free the queen from her prison. I'm hoping that it will see the light within the next 3 or 4 ply -- or come up with some astounding method of liberating the queen with no bad side effects. I started working on the positional suite in connection with a program a friend of mine is going to write. I'm arguing for some radical new approach to evaluation, but, indeed, the challenge is to formulate it in such a way that he can code it successfully. Maybe I'll get lucky and stumble across a new frontier. The suite is meant to show that something new might be necessary. I have about 120 positions now, but I keep having to review and replace them after I look at test runs. It's difficult -- unlike tactical problems, it's often impossible to absolutely prove the validity of some positional continuations. So I try to find positions where some particularly fine positional move has been endorsed and explained by several IMs and/or GMs in varying sources. But also some very elementary problems as well -- many programs have been failing these too. When I have something consistent and grouped into useful themes for diagnostic purposes, I'd be glad to release it in EPD format to anyone interested. Regards, Vine
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