Author: KarinsDad
Date: 16:36:38 06/10/99
Go up one level in this thread
On June 10, 1999 at 18:43:50, Dave Gomboc wrote: [snip] >> >>You are twisting my words Dave (and yes I saw the wink). > >I'm not twisting your words. You said to go for the shortest draw. After the >moves 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1, if 2...d5 (and all other moves) lead to at best a draw, >then 2...Ng8 will be the preferred move, to achieve the draw ASAP. I do not remember ever saying that you should go for the quickest draw in a position which may be won (with perfect play). Please tell me the message in which I said that. > >Personally, I would think that trying for the longest draw (hoping that the >opponent would make a mistake) would be better. But neither criteria is as good >as imitating a fallible opponent and heading for positions that they will blow >it in, so it's a moot point. > >>I said that the quickest draw is best in a drawn position (and only due to >>reasons of decreasing the size of a perfect tablebase). Since I do not think the >>opening position is drawn with perfect play and I obviously think that 1. Nf3 >>Nf6 2. Ng1?? d5!! is a win for black with perfect play, then I think that 1. Nf3 >>Nf6 2. Ng1?? Ng8?! in an attempt to go for a draw is dubious and nowhere near >>perfect play for black (why attempt to equalize the position by removing >>development when you can improve the position by developing?). >> >>KarinsDad ;) > >Your view that one tempo from the start position gives a won game for White is >very extreme, particularly when consulting modern opening manuals, in which >Black is reported as having many routes to equality in several different opening >systems. > >Dave My view is that this MAY occur given perfect play. I do not say that it WILL occur. I do not know any more than you do. I think that just the original extra tempi for white of having first move MAY give white a win with perfect play. I feel stronger that giving one side 2 extra tempi (such as black after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1) has an even greater chance of resulting in a win for that side with perfect play. Attempting to go for a draw by repetition from the first move is ONLY good for white if perfect play results in a win for black and is ONLY good for black if perfect play results in a win for white. However, if either of these 2 cases was in fact what would happen with perfect play, then there would be NO chance to get the draw since perfect play by both sides would result in a win for one of them. Hence, it only makes sense to attempt to go for a draw if the starting position is a drawn position with perfect play. However, using the route 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 appears to fairly weak for white since black gains two tempi. Therefore, the most likely forced drawn position probably takes many ply to get to. It seems likely that white would make it's best move, and then black would make it's best move, etc., until the draw occurs many many many moves later. Neither side would make inferior moves such as Ng1. The game might require 600 ply or more. Who knows? But, it seems apparent that a side would only go for the quickest draw ONCE it gets to a position where a quick draw can be forced. The opening position is not that type of position. However, I do agree with you that a program may go for a slow forced draw or a complicated draw if there is plenty of time remaining, just in an attempt to get the other side to mess up. If one side or the other had a forced win with perfect play from the opening move, then that side would never go for a draw. So, white would never play 2. Ng1 if it had a forced win and black would never play 2 ... Ng8 if it had a forced win. I will now drop out of this discussion since it cannot be proved one way or the other and it seems that neither you nor I will budge from our position. Nice talking to you about it though. KarinsDad :)
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