Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 06:05:04 09/17/98
Go up one level in this thread
On September 17, 1998 at 02:05:43, Jeff Anderson wrote: >I suppose I can understand where you are coming from as the developer. I would >like to point out that Mr. Moreland allows Ferret to play unrated games against >anyone, and he is having no problem finding strong opponenets to play for his >creation. In fact the last 20 games in its history are against above 2600 >players. >Jeff > > I choose to not play unrated, to try to make the games "serious". Since most there treasure rating points, rated games tend to be more serious games. Also, I have seen "scams" where someone "fishes" by playing unrated games until they find a way to force a program to follow a bad book line, then they will play a rated game and win. Also there is a problem with playing rated as white, then an unrated when you get black, then rated with white, etc... >On September 16, 1998 at 22:16:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On September 16, 1998 at 00:49:17, Jeff Anderson wrote: >> >>>On September 14, 1998 at 22:13:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>the most noticable affect is that "crafty" used to play a hundred games a >>>>day. Now it sometimes plays 10 or less, because there are so many crafty's >>>>on ICC. >>> >>>Well your formula is very strict! You eliminate 95% of all possible challengers >>> with insisting that there rating be above about 25001 >>> >>>Secondly you will only accepted challenges that propose rated games. >>> >> >> >>I do this for a reason. (1) the chances of a 2000 player beating Crafty on >>ICC are almost nil. It will happen now and then, but not often. I don't learn >>a lot from crushing 1500-2000 players, because the wins are tactical smashes >>that reveal nothing about problems I have. (2) I learn more from losing than >>from winning. Playing IM/GM players greatly increases the chances of losing, >>which is what I am looking for. (3) There are far more 1500 players than 2500 >>players on ICC. If I let 1500 players in, they will totally lock out the 2500 >>players. and finally (4) I have been specifically asked by some strong players >>there to keep my formula restrictive so that they can play when they want. >> >>If crafty operators want to ban together and work out mutually-exclusive >>formulas (IE I play players over 2500, someone else takes 2100-2499, etc.) >>then that would work. At present we simply have so many crafty's running that >>many have lots of open time because lower-rated players don't like to get >>drubbed tactically... >> >> >> >> >>>Now I think there is something to the suggested idea of ICC computers allowing >>>takebacks. For example you might lower the formula to allow those rated above >>>2000 play, and allow 2-5 takebacks a game. If you are really concerned about >>>seeing games where Crafty has losses against humans, you might consider this >>>approach. Also you could simply ask people to send you log files games where >>>Crafty lost against humans. >> >> >>this doesn't help as much, because those games come from the released version, >>while I am trying to evaluate changes for the *next* version to be released... >> >> >> >>> >>>This would be the sensible approach if your number one concern was having >>>valuable information for improving Crafty. But I'm sure it is not like the >>>adreniline rush you must get when you watch your program beat a GM. You say >>>your strict rating restrictions are in the name of science! You say you would >>>like to see games where Crafty has lost so you can improve Crafty, and very >>>strong players beat Crafty more frequently. Well this is non-sense, because two >>>perfectly reasonable alternatives have been offered, two that would give you >>>excellent data, and one that gives Joe Patzer a chance to play Crafty....and >>>win! >>> >> >> >>the above is *not* "nonsense". As I said, games from "other" crafty's are >>not particularly interesting for me. Folks are trying different extension >>options (tunable from the crafty.rc file), others are trying different book >>variations with wild gambits and stuff they are particularly interested in, >>even if the openings don't fit crafty's "style" very well. I don't have time >>to wander thru a hundred log files a day only to discover that 95 of them were >>lost due to book opening choices. >> >>As far as takebacks, that is complex. Chess is a game played from start to >>finish. The search is written with that in mind, with thinking on the >>opponent's time and so forth. Time controls. All of that is designed around >>the game of chess as defined in the rules. Takebacks add more to the code, >>and introduce code that is not needed in normal games, and this code could well >>be something that hurts something without it being known. So while takebacks >>would be interesting, it isn't chess. We can't do it at WMCCC events, or in >>real rated human events, so adding this to the engine is basically nothing for >>something, sort of. >> >>A year ago, Crafty was playing a hundred games a day, 90% of them against GM >>players, the remainder against IM players. Today it is playing 20-30 GM games >>a day, and 10-20 IM games. I'd still rather play a strong player that is going >>to push it in ways that a weaker player, assisted by takebacks, won't. >> >>As far as the "adrenaline rush" goes, that went away several years ago. I don't >>lose enough games against GM players to notice much any more, so the wins are no >>longer noteworthy. In fact, even the people watching have developed the same >>"expectations" and the occasional GM win produces far more chatter than the >>regular GM losses... >> >> >> >>> >>>Jeff
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