Author: Dave Gomboc
Date: 13:40:47 06/10/99
Go up one level in this thread
On June 10, 1999 at 14:25:50, KarinsDad wrote: >On June 10, 1999 at 13:25:54, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >>On June 10, 1999 at 11:33:37, KarinsDad wrote: >> >>>On June 09, 1999 at 21:09:09, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>> >>>[snip] >>>> >>>>If minimum, then here's a perfect game: >>>> >>>>1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 Ng8 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Ng1 Ng8 5. Nf3 and black claims a draw by >>>>repetition, intending to play Nf6. >>>> >>>>Dave >>> >>>I disagree (what's new?). >>> >>>This is an imperfect game. >>> >>>1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1?? d5!! >>> >>>and black has gained two tempi on white and should win the game instead of >>>drawing it given more perfect play by black (I am not saying that d5 is best >>>here, it is just one example of a good move). >> >>It should have been clear that I thought White could draw down in the position >>after your given second move. In any case, that is what I think. >> > >So, it is your contention that black can still draw a game, even if we give >white the first two moves. The particular moves have been chosen. It's not "any two moves". But I think White to play in the position after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1 d5 can draw, yes. >That is what has effectively occurred for black in the position above where you >think that "White could draw down in the position after the given second move". >Black has 2 pieces developed and white has all of his pieces on his original >squares. So, it is the same as giving white 2 moves at the beginning of the game >instead of 1 and having him play 1. Nf3 d4 (where both of these are white >moves). > >So you think that having the first move for white is a drawn game for black. Yes. >And you think that having two moves in a row at the beginning of the game for >white is a drawn game for black. Not entirely sure, but probably. I think that 1.d4 and e4 is probably the sternest test. >This begs the question: How many moves in a row should we give white before you >think that it is a forced win for white (with perfect play)? > >We know that if you gave white 4 moves in a row that it is a forced win (i.e. 1. >e4 Bc4 Qf3 Qxf7++ where these are all white moves). > >So, would you conceed that if 4 moves in a row for white is a forced win, that 3 >moves in a row at the beginning of the game for white (with perfect play by both >sides) might also be a forced win for white? And if that is so, maybe 2 moves in >a row by white or possibly even white getting the first move is a forced win? I think that three tempi is a lot, maybe enough to win. I am confident that two won't be... though Black will have to play well to hold. >We know how well 2 moves in a row work for null move in a chess program. Could >it also not be true that giving a player an effective null move (e.g. 1. Nf3 Nf6 >2. Ng1 d5) might also be overwhelming with perfect play? The null move is effective precisely because there is usually much interaction between the pieces (e.g. possible captures). The start position of chess (with 0...Nf6 and d5 thrown in ;-) does not have this property. I think White has a disadvantage, but a defensible game. (And so, Black would instead choose to play the knight back to g8, in accordance with your "quickest draw is best". ;-) Dave >Just a thought. > >KarinsDad :)
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