Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 16:09:02 04/26/01
Go up one level in this thread
On April 26, 2001 at 16:19:10, Peter Berger wrote:
>On April 26, 2001 at 15:29:16, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On April 25, 2001 at 17:31:10, Peter Berger wrote:
>>>It's similar when it is about proper implementation of draw rules btw . Offering
>>>draws is only allowed when you have showed your move ; claiming draw by
>>>repetition or 50 moves rule - this should be done by claiming draw saying : " I
>>>reach draw by playing blablabla . " - no program does this properly .
>>
>>
>>
>>As far as I know you can claim a draw by repetition or 50 moves rules either
>>before or after you move.
>>
>>As soon as the condition for the draw is met, you can claim it. The condition
>>can be met before you move, so you can claim a draw before you move.
>>
>>
>>
>> Christophe
>
>OK ; let's get nerdish :
>
>Article 9: The drawn game
>
>9.1 A player can propose a draw after making a move on the chessboard. He must
>do so before stopping his own clock and starting his opponent's clock. An offer
>at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.5 must be
>considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer
>cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it
>orally, rejects it by making a move, or the game is concluded in some other way.
>
>The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with the
>symbol (=).
>
>9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when
>the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by repetition of
>moves)
>
>is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares
>to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
>has just appeared.
>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the
>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the
>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
>Positions are not the same if a pawn could have been captured en passant or if
>the right to castle immediately or in the future has been changed.
>
>
>9.3 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if
>
>he writes on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make a
>move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player
>without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece, or
>the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement
>of any pawn and without the capture of any piece.
>
>
>9.4 If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the
>right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move .
>
>9.5 If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3 he shall immediately stop
>both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his claim.
>
>If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn.
>If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall deduct half of the
>claimant's remaining time up to a maximum of three minutes and add three minutes
>to the opponent's remaining time. Then the game shall continue and the intended
>move must be made.
>
>9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot
>occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play.
>This immediately ends the game.
>
>
>You are right - repeating the rules of chess is still useful though I think .
>There is a proper way of doing it ( the one I mentioned ) ; there are also some
>exceptions which are tolerated ( like the ones you mentioned ) and then there
>are the things which are simply not considered OK ( like the way all commercial
>programs who are able to offer draw except Gandalf do it ) .
Well... I remember that I had to deal with this discussion already. At that time
I had read the rules again and concluded that the way computers do it was OK.
Maybe I did not have the same rules as you (?!).
Anyway, in case of a draw by repetition, if the game is drawn by repetition by
the last move of the opponent, then I can ALWAYS make another move that will
also be a draw by repetition. So in the end it does not matter much if I claim
the draw before of after making the move. However I agree that chess programs to
not obey to your above rules (but could you please provide a copy of article
12.5?).
In the case of the 50 moves rules, I'm not sure. It could be that in some
positions the game could have been claimed a draw by the opponent, but he did
not claim it. Then it's my turn to move, and it could be that I have to make a
move that "resets" the 50 moves counter (for example if I am forced to move a
pawn).
So in this case claiming the draw before moving is probably incorrect, seldomly.
Christophe
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