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Subject: Re: Kasparov - Deep Junior: and tablebases draw rule

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 10:02:10 01/22/03

Go up one level in this thread


On January 22, 2003 at 12:27:56, Dux Kazer wrote:

>On January 22, 2003 at 12:06:37, Matthew Hull wrote:
>
>>On January 22, 2003 at 11:58:05, Christopher A. Morgan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Bob,
>>>
>>>It shows me the abality of GK to negoiate a rule very favorable to him.
>>>It is not at all certain that GK could, over the board, be certain of a
>>>draw in a known draw position as determined with tablebases with, at least all
>>>5 piece endings, and most likely some six piece endings. Now, in those
>>>positions the game will end in a draw, which, in my view, is correct. This
>>>does not address the situation where DJ sees a tablebase draw in its search and,
>>>if it's losing trys to steer the game to that position.
>>>
>>>I like the rule. I do not see any contest between machine and man where
>>>the machine looks up its move in a table, and waits for the human to make
>>>a mistake.
>>
>>
>>It is possible the machine could see a tablebase draw which a human would not
>>know how to "solve" and thus lose the drawn position.  The human would deserve
>>the loss.  This is the point of the man/machine contest.
>>
>
> Oh Yes... but let the machine play without the tablebases and it will lose even
>simple knight vs rook draw for sure, not to say KRP vs KR..

Not necessarily.  Some programs can play krp vs kr pretty well without tables.
I have
special code to handle just this case, for example.  I'm sure others do too.

I'd play _anybody_ KR vs KN with crafty having the KN side...  and not expect to
lose.

>
>>If the possibility of a game like this is so remote, then why have the rule in
>>the first place?
>>
>>It is a bad rule, IMO.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>>>That the machine has a huge opening book is somewhat similar,
>>>but as GK has a tremendous knowledge of openings it seems fair that the
>>>machine have a similar knowledge.
>>>
>>>We know nothing about the opening book for DJ. And, apparently, there are no
>>>rules for the opening book.   I would like to see a rule that limits DJ's
>>>opening book to a set number of moves, like 10-15 moves. As far as we know
>>>DJ's book may be all games played by all strong players who have ever played the
>>>game through to the final move.  Where is the contest if the machine
>>>just looks up its move in a table?
>>>
>>>
>>>On January 22, 2003 at 11:06:48, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 22, 2003 at 05:12:52, Francesco Di Tolla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>An important rule went unnoticed here.
>>>>>
>>>>>The program can use the tablebase, but the game is declared draw when the
>>>>>computer hits a tblbase draw!
>>>>>
>>>>>Not a trivial statement: imagine Kasparov gets into a position where he is in
>>>>>disadvatage, he can try to enter in an endgame he knows to be drawn even not
>>>>>knowing how to play it.
>>>>>
>>>>>A sort of compensation for the fact Deep Junior has the TB's.
>>>>>
>>>>>regards
>>>>>Franz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That is yet another example of the stupidest rule anyone could come up with.



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