Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 02:10:13 07/03/03
Go up one level in this thread
On July 03, 2003 at 01:54:32, Christophe Theron wrote: >On July 02, 2003 at 04:17:28, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>On July 01, 2003 at 18:20:12, Fernando Alonso wrote: >> >>>On July 01, 2003 at 15:46:06, Ralph Stoesser wrote: >>> >>>>Right, that's what I intend with my question. During a 'normal' chess game a >>>>chess engine has to face often positions where the difference in evaluation >>>>between let's say the 5 best moves or so is very small. In such circumstances a >>>>trained neural network maybe could help to find good positional moves better >>>>than a classical evaluation. >>>> >>>>Ralph >>> >>>I agree with you, that is the important point. To put it in other words, can I ( >>>a patzer) with my little chessknowledge, beat Fritz 8 using Fritz 8 to analyze >>>the moves I my brain "thinks"?. I am sure there is a level of playing were >>>someone using a program can beat easily the same program playing alone. But can >>>that knowledge be implemented in neural networks? >> >> >>What knowledge? For the moment nobody addressed Tom's objection IMO. Chess is >>very concrete. >> >>Now what you all are saying that there existed a "knowledge" to find "good" >>positional moves. Of course our human GM have that knowledge. It is a mixture >>out of the evaluation of the very concrete position, deeper (later) consequences >>and again very concrete calculations for these _later_ positions. I dont see why >>"fuzzy" approaches should do that job better than the "classical" evaluation. >> >>What you in special are proposing is NOT a question of "knowledge" but simply >>one of cheating. You know exactly the "thought process" of a program. So you can >>always discover a difference in the evaluation of the final position. Now the >>trick is to invite the machine to go blindly for a big difference which is then >>the win for you. This is typically the approach of smart amateurs with weaker >>chess talents. [Dreihirn comes to mind.] But real chess is something else. A GM >>does NOT win because he's a clairvoyant but because his judgement (combining the >>very concrete with the general experience for the actual and then later >>positions) is "better". A weaker chessplayer has no adaequate judgement at all. >>I cant see why neural networks should have one - where should it come from? Out >>of the blue? >> >>Again, you simply didn't address Tom's objection that "sometimes" it is very >>important where your Rook is standing. Very concrete. How to handle that >>"sometimes" it is "important"? >> >>Rolf > > > >You are demonstrating an almost total ignorance of the subject you are >discussing. > >You'd better read about neural networks first, and only then allow yourself to >make comments. > >But I admit that your writing style is pleasant. Should be enough to convince >people who do not know more than you on the subject. Go ahead. You should prefer making statements about topics itself before you utter unpleasent statements against other members. Thank you so much. I know myself that I know nothing but it is an open question if you know the same about you... Because if you knew you wouldn't declare such trivialities about me. Know what I mean? :) Good luck with your new TIGER 15 in ChessBase. Unfortunately I must concentrate on FRITZ 8 due to lack of time. Rolf > > > > Christophe
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