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Subject: Re: ad hominem

Author: Christophe Theron

Date: 10:04:25 07/03/03

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On July 03, 2003 at 05:10:13, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On July 03, 2003 at 01:54:32, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On July 02, 2003 at 04:17:28, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On July 01, 2003 at 18:20:12, Fernando Alonso wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 01, 2003 at 15:46:06, Ralph Stoesser wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Right, that's what I intend with my question. During a 'normal' chess game a
>>>>>chess engine has to face often positions where the difference in evaluation
>>>>>between let's say the 5 best moves or so is very small. In such circumstances a
>>>>>trained neural network maybe could help to find good positional moves better
>>>>>than a classical evaluation.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ralph
>>>>
>>>>I agree with you, that is the important point. To put it in other words, can I (
>>>>a patzer) with my little chessknowledge, beat Fritz 8 using Fritz 8 to analyze
>>>>the moves I my brain "thinks"?. I am sure there is a level of playing were
>>>>someone using a program can beat easily the same program playing alone. But can
>>>>that knowledge be implemented in neural networks?
>>>
>>>
>>>What knowledge? For the moment nobody addressed Tom's objection IMO. Chess is
>>>very concrete.
>>>
>>>Now what you all are saying that there existed a "knowledge" to find "good"
>>>positional moves. Of course our human GM have that knowledge. It is a mixture
>>>out of the evaluation of the very concrete position, deeper (later) consequences
>>>and again very concrete calculations for these _later_ positions. I dont see why
>>>"fuzzy" approaches should do that job better than the "classical" evaluation.
>>>
>>>What you in special are proposing is NOT a question of "knowledge" but simply
>>>one of cheating. You know exactly the "thought process" of a program. So you can
>>>always discover a difference in the evaluation of the final position. Now the
>>>trick is to invite the machine to go blindly for a big difference which is then
>>>the win for you. This is typically the approach of smart amateurs with weaker
>>>chess talents. [Dreihirn comes to mind.] But real chess is something else. A GM
>>>does NOT win because he's a clairvoyant but because his judgement (combining the
>>>very concrete with the general experience for the actual and then later
>>>positions) is "better". A weaker chessplayer has no adaequate judgement at all.
>>>I cant see why neural networks should have one - where should it come from? Out
>>>of the blue?
>>>
>>>Again, you simply didn't address Tom's objection that "sometimes" it is very
>>>important where your Rook is standing. Very concrete. How to handle that
>>>"sometimes" it is "important"?
>>>
>>>Rolf
>>
>>
>>
>>You are demonstrating an almost total ignorance of the subject you are
>>discussing.
>>
>>You'd better read about neural networks first, and only then allow yourself to
>>make comments.
>>
>>But I admit that your writing style is pleasant. Should be enough to convince
>>people who do not know more than you on the subject. Go ahead.
>
>
>You should prefer making statements about topics itself before you utter
>unpleasent statements against other members.



I have made on topic statements by informing the readers that you don't
understand the topic you are talking about and that people should not rely on
your point of view on this particular topic.

Yes my message was unpleasant, just as unpleasant probably it can be to read
nonsense expressed with authority.




>Thank you so much. I know myself
>that I know nothing but it is an open question if you know the same about you...



I knew nothing about the topic until two days ago.

I have spent a few hours searching with Google and reading papers on Neural
Networks.

At this time I know just a little bit more than nothing on the topic.

But it's enough to realize that you don't know anything yourself on it. Or just
do not understand it.

I thought it would be worth mentionning, for information.

Now I think if you want to continue discussing neural networks you should AT
LEAST do what I did: invest in a few hours of reading.

I know you are intelligent enough to understand the topic. You have already
shown that you are a bright mind.

It's just that good writing style won't save you from the effort of
understanding first the topic you are talking about.





>Because if you knew you wouldn't declare such trivialities about me. Know what I
>mean?   :)



No I don't understand. Feel free to share your lights with me.




    Christophe



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