Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 13:33:41 08/03/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 03, 2003 at 15:05:23, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On August 03, 2003 at 00:33:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 01, 2003 at 22:53:17, Dave Gomboc wrote: >> >>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:51:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 01, 2003 at 19:07:21, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 00:31:17, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>Distances they shot at in world war 1 and 2 with sniper rifles must have been a >>>>>>>few hundreds of meters. >>>>>> >>>>>>In WW1 my grandfather was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>> >>>>>>In WW2 my father was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>> >>>>>>Today, a neighbor down the street is a sniper. He shoots at ranges up to 1000 >>>>>>yards. >>>>>> >>>>>>_nobody_ shoots a sniper rifle at ranges of "kilometers" today. "kilometer" >>>>>>perhaps. With an occasional attempt at up to 2km with a big 50 cal "rifle". >>>>> >>>>>I have to disagree here. I read in the news back at the time that in the war in >>>>>Afghanistan a Canadian military sniper got the world record for a sniper >>>>>distance kill. He picked off some al-Qaeda guy from over 2.5 kilometers (over >>>>>2700 yards) away. >>>>> >>>>>Dave >>>> >>>> >>>>What are you disagreeing with. I said "with an occasional attempt at up to 2km >>>>with a 50 cal." >>>> >>>>You just said that. :) It _is_ rare. And no sniper would say "I can produce >>>>a 50% kill rate at 2KM+." >>> >>> >>>I guess I'm disagreeing with "up to 2km". :-) But then, I don't know what a 50 >>>cal. is, and it's not a big deal to me. >>> >>>Dave >> >>It's a gun that fires the 50-cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun) round, something >>not much smaller than a coke bottle. Next best long-distance round is the >>.338 Lapua round, but it is a _long_ way from the BMG round. > >i'm not sure when you did your tour of duty. I didn't. But I _do_ shoot with former military types at our local range. And as I said, my Grandfather was a sniper in WW1. And my dad in WW2. And I have an active military neighbor that is a marine sniper, right down the street. It was his .50 barrett that I shot and talked about. And they do _not_ practice sniping at "many kilometers." There are _no_ optics to support that, for example. > >But here 10 kilometers from here where the tanks and air mobile regiment is >training they used to train with sniper rifles up to a few kilometers. To 1000 yards, I'll agree with you. That is about a Km. Even to 2Km, I'll agree although they _never_ shoot that far in real situations as it is simply impossible to guarantee a hit. MOA accuracy is very tough to produce, that means 1" at 100 yards, 10" at 1000 yards. 10" is not a "sure kill" target size. > >in cold war, assuming sovjet invasion, assumed killing ranges of 2 kilometers >here from snipers. One shot out of 5-10, maybe. Snipers want "sure kills". And beyond 1000 yards, there is no "sure kill" unless you drop a bomb with a bit larger kill radius than a single projectile from a rifle/machine-gun. > >Note that in world war II, they fought bigtime around here. the bullets didn't >even get that far back then from snipers. This with exception of course from the >heavy machine guns which already in WW1 could spread bullets to a kilometer or 2 >when put on a hill. For WWII and actual fightings taking place here see for >example 'operation market garden' which happened not too far from here and the >movies belonging to it like: "a bridge too far". Majority of victims fell here >however when the germans conquered netherlands. I'm 5 kilometers away from >'Grebbeberg'. The only hill in Netherlands close to the Rhine river... That's all well and good. .50's have been around forever. And they have a staggering range. But not for single-shot look-through-a-scope sniper operations. > >My uncle who just died a few months ago, fought heavy at the Grebbeberg and his >troops killed germans back there from distances up to a few inches. They used >rifles made in 1895 for that with fixed bajonets, because accurate fire with >rifles from those days wasn't very well possible. The german SS, but also the >regular german army forces, who drove dutch civilians and prisoners in front of >them when trying to conquer the Grebbeberg, only managed to conquer a few of the >many kilometer deep positions because the defending forces had to shoot their >own people first, before being able to shoot at the germans, which in that way >they could get closer to the positions. > >I don't need to mention that every so many meters there was machine guns in the >'grebbeberg' > >The distances at which was fought in those first days of the second world war >are in big contrast with nowadays. No idea what you are talking about. Wars aren't fought by snipers today, either. > >Not that the germans never conquered it. > >Only by threatening to bomb the cities they forced a surrender of Netherlands. > >When they would develop bullets for sniper rifles which can penetrate tank >armour, then a few snipers would in 2003 be able to keep that Grebbeberg out of >hands of the enemy. There is _no_ sniper round that will penetrate a tank. a 50 will barely pockmark a modern tank using depleted uranium armor plating that is the equivalent of over a _meter_ of steel. _no_ shoulder-fired weapon will touch that. Very few projectiles will touch that. Moving up to rockets or bombs is the best hope. > >In 1940 it took thousands of deaths, despite having machine guns and hundreds of >fixed bunker positions which no airplane bomb could take out in 1940. > >Most tend to forget simply the advances in hardware not to mention computing >power and software nowadays. > >Back in the old days it wasn't the same as it is today. > >The accurate range of the german hand held machine gun in world war II was for >example 150 meters. After that it was firing too inaccurate. Note that the >majority of the german soldiers just like the dutch soldiers, came by foot there >and carried their own rifle which could fire 1 bullet at a time. Not 5 in a row >or something. > >It is the end of world war II where things were changed really a lot. > >But that was of course after several tens of millions of deaths. > >Hardware guys learn quickly then. Yes, but there are _physical_ limits to firing a projectile. MOA is very good accuracy. at 2000 yards that is 20". Not including wind, mirage, and the shooter/target movement. 20" is not a sure kill zone. In fact, that will result in many complete misses at a human target.
This page took 0.01 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.