Computer Chess Club Archives




Subject: Re: WMCCC - may the best man at getting the fastest hardware win :(

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 20:59:09 10/19/97

Go up one level in this thread

On October 19, 1997 at 17:53:19, Thorsten Czub wrote:

>On October 19, 1997 at 16:19:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>After posting one response this morning, something kept gnawing at the
>>back of my mind, "something is wrong here."  But I couldn't put my
>>on it.  Later it hit me.  I went to DejaNews, and did a search on
>>with "NPS and match" in them.  And found the long thread where Ed and I
>>were debating the importance of NPS.  Ed was on his "tactical
>>bandwagon, and lo and behold, I found posts from Chris and Thorsten
>>in the middle, all saying the same thing.  NPS doesn't matter.
>When I have program A on a pentium120 and the same program A on a
>p2/200, and B beats A of course, what is to be said about this ??
>That NPS is unimportant ?
>That B is stronger than B ?
>From my point of view NPS in unimportant. And we will show this with
>And others show this with THEIR programs that will have less NPS than
>I followed Chris threads here in CCC.
>I think he is not right.
>It doesn't matter which machines you have.
>It does not help you in Den Haag , and it will not help much anyway.
>In a few weeks or months AFTER Paris the opponent programs WOULD develop
>strategies against YOUR programs IF your programs would be sold

my program is "sold" *everywhere*.  To this date in time, there have
170,000 *different* host machines that have downloaded one or more
versions of crafty.  That's 170,000 different people at least, and quite
likely more since many use some pretty common ISP's...

>It is easy to create ANTI-Ferret programs or ANTI-crafty programs, I
>The only fact this does not happen (like it happens against all other
>commercial programs Hiarcs, Mchess, Rebel, Genius, Fritz, CSTal etc.)
>Your programs do not compete anywhere !

You should re-state this.  I competed at Jakarta last year, will be at
this year, and played in at least two good human events this last year,
the Pan Am, and playing in a round robin with 5 GM players...

Maybe I don't compete where *you* compete.  But I do compete.  I have
more games on the chess servers than all the commercial program added
and multiplied by 10X.  So I'm pretty visible, and I know how I (crafty)

>This is - from my point of view - one main reason you are so impressed
>by your NPS. Because you don't compete.
>If you would compete, you would lose like all others lose.

Care to lets post a list of opponents and number of games played over
past year?  I'd start with over 150 games against GM Larry Christiansen.
Shabalov, Shirov, Karpov, Ivanov, Roman, Shaked, and a dozen other GM's
I have

>>Now, suddenly, NPS does matter.  And I suppose I am confused as to what
>>really happened:
>>1.  You didn't really believe any of the things you were saying in the
>>NPS debate, but was really only saying them to keep the debate raging.
>You are confused. Indeed.
>>2.  You did believe the NPS argument (your side of it) but later changed
>>your mind.
>What is the sense of an olympic event when some american or german guys
>are doped with anabolica or Dec Alpha hardware ?
>It only proofs: not any female is really female. Some have a dongle,
>where there should be no dongle. But thats dope.
>>I don't see any other explanation.  In light of your comments on the NPS
>>argument, and those of others, this alpha-issue seems to be a non-issue.
>>*if* you believe what everyone but *me* was saying...
>>Next topic...
>>I don't know why Hiarcs withdrew.  I have an opinion.  If you want to
>>it, here goes:
>>  Hiarcs was withdrawn due to fear of losing.  It is currently on top of
>>the SSDF list.  It is probably beginning to sell decently.  A disaster
>>Paris could reverse that quickly.  I strongly believe that any
>>program that chooses to avoid the WMCCC is doing so solely for
>I think you are wrong concerning Hiarcs. I don't like these: he is
>feared or he is feared discussion. I have seen hiarcs and rebel and
>mchess and others compete in many tournaments and championships. And
>they did a good job. I have not seen crafty or ferret or other programs
>there too. Were you afraid to lose ??

kind of hard for us to compete.  The programs didn't exist.  Crafty is
not yet
three years old.  Bruce is a little older, but only maybe a year or so.
So that
question is pretty stupid.  But *I* have competed with a computer chess
for almost 30 years now.  I *never* ran and hid.  *never*...

> I don't like to lose either.  However, there is one difference
>>between the way I operate and the way the commercial programmers
>>Cray Blitz won the WCCC in 1983 and 1986.  By the time 1989 rolled
>>however, I *knew* we wouldn't win again, unless there was some
>>luck involved, because of Deep Thought.  I had trouble finding machine
>>I nearly decided to forget about it.  But after thinking about this, it
>>seem fair to Hsu and company, because if they won without Cray Blitz
>>there, they would have had to endure the "If CB had been there this
>>have been different."  I kept after Cray, they finally found a customer
>>that would let us use their machine.  We did, DT won, and there was no
>>doubt that they were best.  Contrast that to the commercial mind-set for
>>minute.  Do *everything* based on the bottom line of sales and public
>>opinion.  They didn't go last year.  For the same reason they aren't
>>this year.  And it doesn't have a thing to do with new versions or
>>else other than not wanting to take a chance.  Perhaps in another year
>>will be amateur only.  Doesn't matter to me...  I can think of a couple
>>amateur programs I fear more than any of the commercial programs already
>>and this is going to get better (or worse depending on perspective.)
>>So I don't believe for a minute that the "alpha issue" ran Hiarcs off,
>>kept Genius away, nor Rebel, nor any other program.  I think it is a
>>of "fear" more than anything else.
>I don't think Mark is feared to lose, nor do I think Ed is afraid or
>Marty or somebody else. I can only laugh about your statement.
>maybe you are afraid, but I don't believe Mark would be afraid to play
>against Ferret or crafty. In fact hiarcs played against ferret once ...

and against crafty many times.  I'd be happy to post the results if
like to see them.  They are probably not quite what you are expecting

>>Unfortunate, because I am just as
>>of doing badly as anyone else.  But *not* so afraid that I won't play.
>And this is right for all the other you call feared.

hmmm... then *where are they?*???

>>Crafty loses every game, I'll get to enjoy a year of razzing.   But it
>>at least be there.  I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is...
>The money question was not the reason for mark, and not your

right...  and not for Richard...  and not for Ed, even though he
stated that he was afraid of these events because amateurs cooked his
I use a different book for tournaments than I do for casual play.  I'll
my opinion for the present...

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