Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Taking a stand and a poll

Author: odell hall

Date: 20:21:52 07/07/01

Go up one level in this thread


On July 07, 2001 at 21:50:23, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On July 07, 2001 at 18:50:40, odell hall wrote:
>
>>On July 07, 2001 at 18:41:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On July 07, 2001 at 17:01:55, Otello Gnaramori wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 07, 2001 at 09:53:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 07, 2001 at 00:59:41, Jay Rinde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 06, 2001 at 23:38:06, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 06, 2001 at 10:47:13, Jonas Cohonas wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On July 06, 2001 at 09:08:17, James T. Walker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It seems that some people continually come up with reasons why computers are not
>>>>>>>>>GM strength.  But if you look at the whole picture it's hard to deny.  I am
>>>>>>>>>constantly reading here that "a single game means nothing";"A tournament like in
>>>>>>>>>Argentina means nothing";"Playing a GM who is not familiar with computers means
>>>>>>>>>nothing";"Beating low rated GMs(2500) means nothing";"The GM did not play
>>>>>>>>>'anti-computer chess'" etc. etc. etc.  What do all these things put together
>>>>>>>>>mean?  Last year I think it was some Spanish IM's that allowed a computer in
>>>>>>>>>their tournament and all were embarrased.  Now it's Argentina and the same
>>>>>>>>>result.  Now a computer has to beat a 2600 GM to prove it's GM strength although
>>>>>>>>>there are many 2500 level GMs who could not do this.  Why are people constantly
>>>>>>>>>trying to put artificial requirements on computers that are not required of
>>>>>>>>>humans?  I believe one thing is already proven.  If humans play computers just
>>>>>>>>>like any other human then computers are definitely at GM strength right now.
>>>>>>>>>Also if you want to set up the computer for a fall, it can be done if you have
>>>>>>>>>enough control over the conditions.  Some people want computers to be "bullet
>>>>>>>>>proof" before they will declare computers GM level.  Just another requirement
>>>>>>>>>that humans are not subjected to.  Some point at specific computer weaknesses
>>>>>>>>>and say "see that, it can't be a GM if it does that".  Rebel took on some GMs in
>>>>>>>>>the GM Challenge and played them fairly even.  Can an IM do that?  If he can he
>>>>>>>>>will soon be a GM.  The only difference is a human has the opportunity to play
>>>>>>>>>in FIDE tournaments and qualify for the title but computers do not.  This is
>>>>>>>>>done in tournaments and not matches where one prepares specifically for the
>>>>>>>>>opponent.  So that's where I stand.  Given a fair chance for the title I believe
>>>>>>>>>there are several programs that could achieve the GM title.  Of course it's only
>>>>>>>>>my opinion and it means nothing except that I've finally taken a stand.  I've
>>>>>>>>>walked into the "Computers can be GMs" camp (if given the opportunity).
>>>>>>>>>Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I second all of the above, well put Jim!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Poll results so far, from my site:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Are computers GM strength ? [126 votes total]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yes(88)         70%
>>>>>>>>No(26)          21%
>>>>>>>>Don't know(12)  10%
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/vainot/BetaChess.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Regards
>>>>>>>>Jonas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I guess that solves that.  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BTW, another "poll" taken almost 600 years ago proved that the world was
>>>>>>>flat, too.  If you are into that kind of "proof".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>:)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The world isn't flat?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Must be.  Before Columbus set sail way back, polls said it was flat.  No need
>>>>>to try to sail around the world when you know it is flat.
>>>>
>>>>Instead of eluding the very well put point of James , why don't you try to reply
>>>>to him.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I _did_ reply to his point.  Polls mean nothing except what popular opinion
>>>says.  Nothing to do with whether something is a fact or not, just an
>>>opinion.  Scientists don't go around taking polls to determine if a quark has
>>>mass, they do the experiments to prove or disprove it.
>>>
>>>Polls are interesting to know what people _think_.  But that is _all_ they
>>>reveal.
>>>
>>>>Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry Bob
>>
>> But the experiments have been done, over, and over, with Two 2700+
>>performances, the problem is that you and others are ignoring the results.
>
>
>I'm not ignoring a thing.  I watch these things play humans and computers day
>in and day out.  That is a _much_ larger volume of data than the rare tournament
>here and there....


 I really don't understand what your saying, since even on icc computers are
performing like supergrandmasters.



This page took 0.01 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.