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Subject: Re: Feng-Hsiung Hsu's talk at Microsoft

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 09:10:41 10/08/02

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On October 08, 2002 at 10:55:29, Uri Blass wrote:

>On October 08, 2002 at 10:50:20, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On October 08, 2002 at 07:08:51, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On October 08, 2002 at 00:52:38, Eugene Nalimov wrote:
>>>
>>>>Wrong.
>>>>
>>>>Today I visited the talk by Feng-Hsiung Hsu he gave at Microsoft. Here are some
>>>>points from memory:
>>>>
>>>>They used forward pruning in the hardware, and according to Hsu it gives them
>>>>5x-10x speedup. He wrote about that in the book, too, but without any details.
>>>
>>>
>>>Can you ask him if 12(6) really means 12 plies in the software and 6 plies in
>>>the hardware?
>>>
>>>A second question is if the plies in the hardware were selective search from the
>>>first ply.
>>>
>>>>In the talk he named that pruning as "analogy cutoff" and mentioned that "if the
>>>>move is useless in some position, it is also useless in the similar position".
>>>>In the book he writes "it can be done in the hardware as long as it does not
>>>>have to be 100% correct".
>>>>
>>>>They used null-move thread detection, as well as not only singular extension,
>>>>but also extension on only 2 or 3 good replies. They used fractional extensions.
>>>>He also says that their Q-search is much more powerful than the one that is
>>>>usually used in the software-only programs.
>>>>
>>>>Hsu gave some details why they don't use null-move:
>>>>(1) He thinks that singular extensions and null-move gave more-or-less the same
>>>>rating difference (100-200 points IIRC).
>>>
>>>I think that he underestimates null-move pruning.
>>>
>>>I believe that for long time control null move pruning gives more than 100-200
>>>points.
>>>
>>>People may try Fritz with selectivity=0 to find it's rating without null move.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>I can assure you it doesn't.  Several of us ran this experiment in the past.  It
>>produced a 50-100
>>point improvement at most.  Bruce ran it first.  I then repeated it to see if
>>his result held for me
>>as well.  50-100 is nothing to sneeze at of course...  But that is all it will
>>give...
>
>What was the time control and the hardware.
>
>I believe that the improvement is bigger
>at slower time control.
>
>If the experiment was some years ago and
>in time control that is faster than 120/40
>then the results may be different today.
>
>Uri


I don't know about Bruce.  I used 40 moves in one hour followed by 20 moves in
30 minutes,
with no sudden-death at all.

I ran it on several computers here for several weeks...



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