Author: Uri Blass
Date: 18:33:41 11/08/04
Go up one level in this thread
On November 08, 2004 at 20:19:31, chandler yergin wrote: >On November 08, 2004 at 19:25:20, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On November 08, 2004 at 18:57:01, chandler yergin wrote: >> >>>On November 08, 2004 at 17:43:18, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On November 08, 2004 at 16:25:48, chandler yergin wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 08, 2004 at 12:05:19, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 08, 2004 at 11:31:59, chandler yergin wrote: >>>>>>>Oh, it finds it v-e-r-y- Quickly! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Just doesn't think too highly of it! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Looks like your 'immortal' game, is very Mortal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed - Rebel 12 >>>>>>>rnbq1rk1/pp1n1p1p/4p1p1/3pP1N1/1b1p1P1P/2NB4/PPP3P1/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Analysis by Shredder 8: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>11.h5 dxc3 12.b3 Qc7 13.hxg6 fxg6 14.Rxh7 Qb6 15.Ke2 Rd8 16.Bxg6 Kf8 17.Rh8+ Kg7 >>>>>>>18.Rxd8 Qf2+ 19.Kxf2 Kxg6 20.Rxc8 Nxe5 21.fxe5 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.45) Depth: 12/12 00:00:00 >>>>>> >>>>>>>11.h5 dxc3 12.b3 Qc7 13.hxg6 fxg6 14.Rxh7 Qb6 15.Ke2 Rd8 16.Bxg6 Kf8 17.Rh8+ Kg7 >>>>>>>18.Rxd8 Qf2+ 19.Kxf2 Kxg6 20.Rxc8 Nxe5 21.fxe5 >>>>>>> ³ (-0.45) Depth: 16/16 00:00:01 271kN >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(Yergin, MyTown 08.11.2004) >>>>>> >>>>>>It is obvious that it learned from previous abalysis. >>>>>>No change in the score or in the main line from depth 12 to depth 16. >>>>> >>>>>Check the TIME! >>>>>00.01 seconds >>>> >>>>The time is not important >>> >>>Why? >>>>It is obvious that Shredder8 cannot get depth 16 in 1 seconds in this position >>>>without learning. >>> >>>Learning from what? >> >>Learning from previous analysis of the game. >> >>If I know combination I can also find the first move in 0 seconds and you gave >>shredder8 to analyze the game before giving it the relevant position so it >>remembered a score for h5 at small depths and did not need to analyze h5 and >>only analyzed other moves to find that they are not better. > >I was using Multiple Lines.. to see what & how other moves were evaluated. >Without analysis Fritz 5.32 & Crafty also found 11. h5 with no problem. Fritz5.32 and Crafty cannot find 11.h5 in a short time I checked and found that Fritz5.32 cannot find it in a reasonable time. The facts are that Crafty even cannot find 11.h5 after many hours based on analysis that was posted here. Of course it may find it if you use a special personality but I talk about the default personality. > >You were expecting this? > >Ed - Rebel 12 > [D]rnbq1rk1/pp1n1p1p/4p1p1/3pP1N1/1b1p1P1P/2NB4/PPP3P1/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 1 > >Analysis by Shredder 8: > >11.Qh5 gxh5 12.Nxh7 > -+ (-9.90) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 >11.Qh5 gxh5 12.Bxh7+ Kg7 > -+ (-10.55) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 >11.Qh5 gxh5 12.Bxh7+ Kh8 > -+ (-10.38) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.0-0 dxc3 > -+ (-5.13) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.0-0 dxc3 > -+ (-4.06) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.0-0 dxc3 > -+ (-4.04) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.Bxg6 Bxc3+ 12.bxc3 hxg6 > -+ (-4.00) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.Bxg6 fxg6 12.Qxd4 > -+ (-3.54) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >11.Bxg6 fxg6 12.Nxe6 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 > -+ (-3.46) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 2/2 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 3/3 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 4/4 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 6/14 00:00:00 >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 7/10 00:00:00 6kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 8/8 00:00:00 15kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 9/12 00:00:00 16kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 10/21 00:00:00 31kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 11/24 00:00:00 64kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 12/24 00:00:00 170kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 13/20 00:00:01 337kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 14/26 00:00:02 690kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 15/32 00:00:05 1349kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 16/30 00:00:08 2049kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 17/42 00:00:18 5155kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 18/40 00:00:28 8195kN >11.h5 dxc3 > ³ (-0.27) Depth: 19/37 00:00:46 13986kN >11.h5 dxc3 12.hxg6 hxg6 13.a3 cxb2+ 14.axb4 bxa1Q 15.Rh8+ Kxh8 16.Bd2 Qxd1+ >17.Kxd1 Nxe5 18.fxe5 Kg7 19.Bxg6 > ³ (-0.52) Depth: 20/52 00:02:37 51108kN > >(Yergin, MyTown 08.11.2004) Score for 11.h5 goes down so shredder may change it's mind if you give it more time. It clearly learned and your analysis now is different from previous analysis. > >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I do not have Shredder8 but here is some analysis by Shredder7.04 on A1000 and >>>>it does not get h5. >>>> >>>>after learning I suspect that yace can also see it very fast so it proves >>>>nothing >>>> >>>>Shredder8 may be able to search deeper but not that deeper. >>> >>> >>>Check the Analysis and times... >> >>This is exactly the point. >>The analysis and the time does not make sense for a program that did not learn >>from analysis of the game. > >Of course it does.. It doesn't just check Main Line.. it evaluates many, >you just have the PV showing. I am not talking about the fact that it searches many lines but about the fact that I am sure that shredder8 cannot find h5 in a short time if the user analyze the game so shredder updates his learning files. I am sure that it's evaluation is not going to be constant at depthes 1-19 if it does not use learning files that it learned from previous experience. If you give it position when it already saw related position from the game then it is biased. If it searched the position after 11.h5 to depth 18 in the past then it may remember that the result of the search was -0.27 for white and use this memory to get score for 11.h5 at depths 1-19 without searching 11.h5 when it searches other moves to see that they are weaker than -0.27 Uri
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