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Subject: Re: chess and neural networks

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 01:17:28 07/02/03

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On July 01, 2003 at 18:20:12, Fernando Alonso wrote:

>On July 01, 2003 at 15:46:06, Ralph Stoesser wrote:
>
>>Right, that's what I intend with my question. During a 'normal' chess game a
>>chess engine has to face often positions where the difference in evaluation
>>between let's say the 5 best moves or so is very small. In such circumstances a
>>trained neural network maybe could help to find good positional moves better
>>than a classical evaluation.
>>
>>Ralph
>
>I agree with you, that is the important point. To put it in other words, can I (
>a patzer) with my little chessknowledge, beat Fritz 8 using Fritz 8 to analyze
>the moves I my brain "thinks"?. I am sure there is a level of playing were
>someone using a program can beat easily the same program playing alone. But can
>that knowledge be implemented in neural networks?


What knowledge? For the moment nobody addressed Tom's objection IMO. Chess is
very concrete.

Now what you all are saying that there existed a "knowledge" to find "good"
positional moves. Of course our human GM have that knowledge. It is a mixture
out of the evaluation of the very concrete position, deeper (later) consequences
and again very concrete calculations for these _later_ positions. I dont see why
"fuzzy" approaches should do that job better than the "classical" evaluation.

What you in special are proposing is NOT a question of "knowledge" but simply
one of cheating. You know exactly the "thought process" of a program. So you can
always discover a difference in the evaluation of the final position. Now the
trick is to invite the machine to go blindly for a big difference which is then
the win for you. This is typically the approach of smart amateurs with weaker
chess talents. [Dreihirn comes to mind.] But real chess is something else. A GM
does NOT win because he's a clairvoyant but because his judgement (combining the
very concrete with the general experience for the actual and then later
positions) is "better". A weaker chessplayer has no adaequate judgement at all.
I cant see why neural networks should have one - where should it come from? Out
of the blue?

Again, you simply didn't address Tom's objection that "sometimes" it is very
important where your Rook is standing. Very concrete. How to handle that
"sometimes" it is "important"?

Rolf



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