Author: Robin Smith
Date: 12:53:46 06/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 23, 2005 at 14:57:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On June 23, 2005 at 11:29:32, Robin Smith wrote: > >>On June 23, 2005 at 09:39:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On June 23, 2005 at 03:37:51, Robin Smith wrote: >>> >>>>On June 22, 2005 at 16:20:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 13:51:40, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 03:10:00, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>>>>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>>>>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>>>>>>game where he has the black pieces. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>>>>>>a computer" logic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But in an open position. >>>>>>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>>>>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>>>>>>finds white better IMHO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>>>>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>>>>>>together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>>>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>>>>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You don´t have a clue. >>>>>> >>>>>>And you do? :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>>It´s always easy to sacrifice the exchange of others. In order to play this >>>>>>>sacrifice you have to calculate correctly some very concrete lines. >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course. That is obvious and I never said otherwise. All I said was that black >>>>>>is OK if he plays cxd4 instead of Rc7. >>>>>> >>>>>>>For example 24.Bxc8 Bxe5 ( The ending after 24...Qxc8 is very difficult to play >>>>>>>for black) 25.Bxf5 d3 24.Qc6 d2 27.Bxd2 Nxd2 28.Rxe5 Nxb1 29.Bxb1 Qd1+ 30.Kh2 >>>>>>>Qxb1 31.Qd6 Kg8 32.Rxh5 Qxa2 = and the position after 25.Qxc8 Qf6 26.Qc4 Qxe5 >>>>>>>27.g3 is very difficult to play for black. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Definitely not the typ of position you want to play against a computer. >>>>>> >>>>>>I agreed this is not the type of position a human wants to be in in another >>>>>>post. Did you read it before you shot off your mouth? >>>>>> >>>>>>>Therefore Adams Rc7 is a completely understandable decision. >>>>>> >>>>>>I agree that Adams decision was understandable. I never said otherwise. It was >>>>>>also a mistake, that's all; an understandable mistake. I have always agreed that >>>>>>by this point Adams was in the type of position that is hard for a human to >>>>>>play. That does not mean he made mistakes earlier. It is easier for white to >>>>>>create open, messy positions that are hard for a human to play than it is for >>>>>>black to prevent it, so just because it happens does not mean Adams made >>>>>>mistakes prior to getting into such a position. Hyrda won because Hydra played >>>>>>well, not because Adams "blundered" or made "outright stupid" choices or "GM >>>>>>Adams missed this move". I think it is disrespectful to GM Adams when people say >>>>>>such things, especially since Adams _didn't_ blunder. >>>>>> >>>>>>-Robin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I'll say it again. You can throw high, fast and outside to a big hitter, and >>>>>when he slaps it over the fence, you can say "good shot". Or you can say "lousy >>>>>pitch." In this game, it was a lousy pitch by Adams. If he chooses to avoid >>>>>anti-computer type chess, that's fine, and no it isn't a blunder. >>>> >>>>Then why in http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?432636 did you say >>>>"He was guilty of a different type of blunder. Namely of playing 1. ... e5 >>>>against the computer." Was it a blunder or not? Have you changed your position >>>>so that now we agree? >>>> >>>>-Robin >>> >>>No. It was a mistake, or a blunder, or a foolhardy opening choice. You pick >>>the description. But it was clearly the wrong approach to playing a computer. >>>Anyone that has played them often will say the same thing... >>> >>>I don't see why this turns into an argument when the basic premise is so well >>>understood by so many... >> >>Bob, believe it or not I understand the desirability of keeping the position >>closed. Over and over again I have agreed with that. But there is a second basic >>premise, also understood by so many ... play openings you know. You keep not >>addressing that. >> >>-Robin >> > >There is nothing to address then. Let 'im keep playing 1. e4 e5. He has lost >both of those as black, in sterling fashion. He can continue to do so, or he >can decide to vary as Kasparov and others have when playing computers. We know >what sticking with e5 is going to produce. We know the computer is not going to >change. So either he does, or he goes down in flames. Which would you >suggest??? If I were to suggest something to Adams, it would be for him to play the Caro. At least he has played it on occaision, so it is not completely unfamiliar. But if he does opt for 1...e5 I won't hurl insults at him, implying he is stupid, as you have done. If he plays 1...e5 I would assume that he is more comfortable playing such openings against computers than he is playing other openings. All the GMs practice with computers these days. Do you honestly belive you know better than Adams what openings he does best against computers? -Robin >>>> >>>>>But it _is_ a >>>>>mistake. You play to your opponent's weaknesses, not to his strength, for max >>>>>advantage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>>>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>>>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>>>>>>all over the board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>>>>>>looks OK to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>>>>>>"significantly better". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>>>>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-Robin
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