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Subject: Re: What is the average nodes per second for minimax?

Author: blass uri

Date: 11:57:35 06/17/00

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On June 17, 2000 at 14:40:47, leonid wrote:

>On June 17, 2000 at 09:53:11, blass uri wrote:
>
>>On June 17, 2000 at 09:43:45, leonid wrote:
>>
>>>On June 17, 2000 at 08:40:11, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 16, 2000 at 05:41:35, leonid wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 16, 2000 at 03:05:12, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>For alphabeta, on a Celeron 466, doing only material: 800.000 positions /second.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for your response that is perfect and clear! It correspond exactly to
>>>>>what I am asking to know. You indicated speed for "doing material". My name for
>>>>>this is "positional logic". If you still will be able to give some concret
>>>>>position (or two positions) with concret numbers, it will make your response
>>>>>even more complet.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>Leonid.
>>>>
>>>>You can use the "rule of thumb" that with more evaluation you can divide this
>>>>number by at least 2, for a normal leaf processor. So with a normal eval I
>>>>expect something between 200.000 and 400.000 NPS. It depends on how smart you
>>>>want to make your program.
>>>>
>>>>Download Crafty and measure its NPS on your own CPU. If you program is not too
>>>>dumb and NPS is in the same ballpark as Crafty with full eval, that's
>>>>reasonable. If it has very little eval but is still 4x slower than Crafty you
>>>>might want to redo the "core" routines and/or datastructures. Some interesting
>>>>things to measure:
>>>>
>>>>- speed of make/unmake()
>>>>- speed of a sorted GenCaptures()
>>>>- speed of SquareAttacked()
>>>>- speed of Static Exchange Evaluation (SEE)
>>>>
>>>>Of course speed isn't everything, but on the other hand it is "comfortable" to
>>>>know your "core" is ok.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Bas Hamstra.
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks!
>>>
>>>I probably already did what you have suggested. I tried Crafty and few other
>>>best program that we have in Hiarcs package. There I cold see usual NPS for
>>>those programs. Since you indicated before number of NPS for minimax (our
>>>computers are almost identical) I could calculate curious factor for them.
>>>Apparently mentined factor is the same for them and for me, around 5. This have
>>>me some expectation that my moves ordering is already now close to the best one.
>>>
>>>Your number of minimax is astoundingly close to mine. On AMD 400 it is between
>>>800000 and 1100000. Average number of NPS (normal logic) is around 200000. For
>>>best games this number is around 150000. Probably still I must push a little bit
>>>efficency of my move ordering to reach them.
>>
>>The number of nps is different for different top programs.
>>You cannot learn from the number of nps if your program is good or bad.
>>
>>Uri
>
>Agree with you 100%! Only when you want compare positional logic (material
>echange) you are in some borderless and strange place. Even some general
>indication make you feel better.
>
>Perfect idea about speed of the program could be found only by solving mate
>containing position.
>
>Your saying about nps make me think about Hiarcs numbers. They are actually
>twice below others program figures. Enigmatic and beyond my explanation. As
>"maybe" I see only two things:
>
>1) Perfect move ordering. Better is the move ordering lower is NPS.
>2) Extensions.
>
>If somebody could explain this anomaly, it will be nice.

I think that extensions is the reason.
Another possible explanation could be the evaluation function but I read that
hiarcs does not use most of the time about evaluation.

Uri



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