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Subject: Re: What is the average nodes per second for minimax?

Author: blass uri

Date: 12:03:21 06/17/00

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On June 17, 2000 at 14:57:35, blass uri wrote:

>On June 17, 2000 at 14:40:47, leonid wrote:
>
>>On June 17, 2000 at 09:53:11, blass uri wrote:
>>
>>>On June 17, 2000 at 09:43:45, leonid wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 17, 2000 at 08:40:11, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 16, 2000 at 05:41:35, leonid wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On June 16, 2000 at 03:05:12, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>For alphabeta, on a Celeron 466, doing only material: 800.000 positions /second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks for your response that is perfect and clear! It correspond exactly to
>>>>>>what I am asking to know. You indicated speed for "doing material". My name for
>>>>>>this is "positional logic". If you still will be able to give some concret
>>>>>>position (or two positions) with concret numbers, it will make your response
>>>>>>even more complet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>Leonid.
>>>>>
>>>>>You can use the "rule of thumb" that with more evaluation you can divide this
>>>>>number by at least 2, for a normal leaf processor. So with a normal eval I
>>>>>expect something between 200.000 and 400.000 NPS. It depends on how smart you
>>>>>want to make your program.
>>>>>
>>>>>Download Crafty and measure its NPS on your own CPU. If you program is not too
>>>>>dumb and NPS is in the same ballpark as Crafty with full eval, that's
>>>>>reasonable. If it has very little eval but is still 4x slower than Crafty you
>>>>>might want to redo the "core" routines and/or datastructures. Some interesting
>>>>>things to measure:
>>>>>
>>>>>- speed of make/unmake()
>>>>>- speed of a sorted GenCaptures()
>>>>>- speed of SquareAttacked()
>>>>>- speed of Static Exchange Evaluation (SEE)
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course speed isn't everything, but on the other hand it is "comfortable" to
>>>>>know your "core" is ok.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>Bas Hamstra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>I probably already did what you have suggested. I tried Crafty and few other
>>>>best program that we have in Hiarcs package. There I cold see usual NPS for
>>>>those programs. Since you indicated before number of NPS for minimax (our
>>>>computers are almost identical) I could calculate curious factor for them.
>>>>Apparently mentined factor is the same for them and for me, around 5. This have
>>>>me some expectation that my moves ordering is already now close to the best one.
>>>>
>>>>Your number of minimax is astoundingly close to mine. On AMD 400 it is between
>>>>800000 and 1100000. Average number of NPS (normal logic) is around 200000. For
>>>>best games this number is around 150000. Probably still I must push a little bit
>>>>efficency of my move ordering to reach them.
>>>
>>>The number of nps is different for different top programs.
>>>You cannot learn from the number of nps if your program is good or bad.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>Agree with you 100%! Only when you want compare positional logic (material
>>echange) you are in some borderless and strange place. Even some general
>>indication make you feel better.
>>
>>Perfect idea about speed of the program could be found only by solving mate
>>containing position.
>>
>>Your saying about nps make me think about Hiarcs numbers. They are actually
>>twice below others program figures. Enigmatic and beyond my explanation. As
>>"maybe" I see only two things:
>>
>>1) Perfect move ordering. Better is the move ordering lower is NPS.
>>2) Extensions.
>>
>>If somebody could explain this anomaly, it will be nice.
>
>I think that extensions is the reason.
>Another possible explanation could be the evaluation function but I read that
>hiarcs does not use most of the time about evaluation.
>
>Uri

I remember that Amir Ban claimed that Junior is using only less than 20% of its
time for evaluiation and that other top programs also do not use more than 50%
of their time for evaluation.
I asked if hiarcs does not use about 90% of its time for evaluation(I suspected
that it is the case because of the nodes per second) and he replied that it does
not do it.

Uri



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