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Subject: Re: Null-Move: Difference between R = 2 and R = 3 in action

Author: Omid David

Date: 05:37:34 07/15/02

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I don't think using double null-move is a good idea in practice, since in
midgame the chance of zugzwang is negligible and thus it's superfluous (I doubt
if even DIEP uses it). However the contribution of double null-move is that it
gives legitimacy to the null-move pruning idea, proving that it _is_ a correct
search method (anyway, no one doubts null-move nowadays).

Omid.


On July 14, 2002 at 05:28:29, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On July 14, 2002 at 02:44:17, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>In my draughtsprogram i tried a zugzwang detection with
>a normal search depth-2. The overhead from this is
>*huge* though.
>
>*no one* is using this overhead in his chessprogram,
>for obvious reasons.
>
>double nullmove is allowing you to have both a zugzwang
>detection as well as use nullmove in an efficient combination.
>
>It's a very elegant solution.
>
>most important however, is that double nullmove was invented
>to proof that searching with nullmove is a correct way to search.
>
>Nowadays we don't have this discussion a lot anymore, though
>Schaeffer at world champs was still defending deep blue seeing more
>than other chessprograms, even though they searched 11 to 12 ply
>at nominal search depth, but i remember huge discussions here
>from dudes mentionning that fullwidth 12 ply was seeing more
>*always* than 12 ply with nullmove.
>
>Well, i can imagine someone coming from the checkers area, to
>defend the principle that 12 ply fullwidth is better. In draughts/checkers
>not detecting zugzwang is suicide, because the whole game goes about
>it. This whereas the last time he had a chessprogram was in the 80s
>where a 6 ply search always beated a 4 ply search and a 4 ply search always
>beated a 2 ply search. And the 8 ply search from deep thought/chiptest
>always beated the 6 ply searches from others.
>
>double nullmove therefore was in first place something to show that
>using double nullmove IS a correct way to search in chess. Only *sometimes*
>you need a lot of plies more. To detect a zugzwang you need 2R-2 ply
>more than fullwidth.
>
>For more than 1 zugzwang and searching SMP i need to mention you usually
>are lucky that 1 or more processors have seen nonsense lines and by
>means of transposition solve it then. If not, then you simply need
>a bunch of plies more. for each additional zugzwang.
>
>That's a price to pay, but a small price.
>
>
>
>>On July 13, 2002 at 21:26:30, Omid David wrote:
>>
>>>On July 13, 2002 at 11:52:36, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 11:09:19, Omid David wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 10:33:19, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 04:47:16, Omid David wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 02:39:38, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 02:22:00, Omid David wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On July 13, 2002 at 02:07:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I still do not understand which positions you talk about which R=2
>>>>>>>>>>is finding and R=3 isn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I read your other post, that's also my point: Although at fixed depth, R=2 is
>>>>>>>>>much better than R=3 (see also "adaptive null-move pruning" Heinz 1999), in
>>>>>>>>>practice R=3 performs about the same as R=2 since on many occasions it finds the
>>>>>>>>>correct move one ply later with lower search cost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>By the way, if you have not found Vincent's post on double null move you should
>>>>>>>>look it up.  It is a clear win for sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes it's a nice idea. But the main null-move pruning deficiency is its tactical
>>>>>>>weakness due to horizon effect. Zugzwangs are not a major problem, and as
>>>>>>>Vincent points out, he invented the double null-move idea just to show that
>>>>>>>null-move pruning is OK. Now nobody doubts effectiveness of null-move pruning at
>>>>>>>all, the only discussion nowadays is the depth reduction value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm missing any position where you have a problem though. Seems to me
>>>>>>your thing is incredible weak, and or doing other dubious things which
>>>>>>gets looked up in hashtable, after which it weakens your program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In DIEP i don't have all these problems.
>>>>>>  - no dubious forward pruning
>>>>>>  - no futility
>>>>>>  - no razoring or any of these techniques.
>>>>>>  - checks in qsearch
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Just PVS with nullmove R=3 and a bunch of extensions. That's it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Means that after a nullmove i don't get transpositions to positions
>>>>>>where you have stored a score which is based upon a dubious score.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>Vincent
>>>>>
>>>>>Why do you think there is a problem?! All the results I got are natural. I'm
>>>>>sure even in DIEP, R=2 works better under "fixed theoretical" conditions.
>>>>
>>>>No it works worse, because i search at least a ply less deeply. If i search
>>>>a ply deeper that doesn't only mean i get a ply more. Because the depth
>>>>is already pretty decent it also means all extensions might get triggered
>>>>a ply extra (like singular extensions).
>>>>
>>>>>However in practice you don't search to fixed depth and thus R=3 might be better
>>>>>in practice.
>>>>>
>>>>>My only point is that "R=3 might be better than most people consider it." (Take
>>>>>DIEP as a successful use of R=3)
>>>>>
>>>>>P.S.
>>>>>Have you published anything regarding double null-move?
>>>>
>>>>I simply posted in CCC and RGCC. the thing is real easy.
>>>>allow 2 nullmoves in a row always, but not 3.
>>>>Exception is if both sides only have pawns (of course you
>>>>can solve a few testset positions sooner by saying that
>>>>if either side has only pawns you don't allow nullmove
>>>>FOR BOTH SIDES, but that's in reality not so smart to do).
>>>>
>>>>Apart from that the normal conditions that i don't nullmove
>>>>when in check.
>>>>
>>>>This in fact results in nullmove not missing zugzwangs anymore.
>>>>Of course for more than 1 zugzwang the extra depth needed is
>>>>pretty big.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Vincent
>>>
>>>I'd rather see such articles as "double null-move pruning" in ICCA than the
>>>usual pure-theoretical-non-practical articles!
>>
>>
>>
>>Double null-move sounds elegant, but actually it's a zugzwang detection search
>>at depth D-2R-2 (D=remaining depth, and R is the classic null move reduction
>>constant).
>>
>>It is less flexible than a zugzwang detection search because:
>>1) the depth is fixed to D-2R-2, so you can't adjust it to a better value (and
>>D-2R-2 is not an optimal value).
>>2) it's less easy to declare the conditions determining when you want to do (or
>>avoid to do) the zugzwang detection (but this can be discussed).
>>
>>
>>
>>    Christophe



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