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Subject: Re: Why Did Junior Underperform So Badly In Bilbao?

Author: Graham Laight

Date: 07:34:50 10/13/04

Go up one level in this thread


On October 13, 2004 at 10:19:32, Peter Skinner wrote:

>On October 13, 2004 at 09:36:13, Graham Laight wrote:
>
>>On October 13, 2004 at 09:09:05, Peter Skinner wrote:
>>
>>>On October 13, 2004 at 07:51:42, Graham Laight wrote:
>>>
>>>>I refer you to http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?391364 , and I
>>>>would be interested to read your comments!
>>>
>>>One tournament would hardly be a basis to determine the strength of a human or a
>>>computer.
>>
>>This is a good point. However - the results I'm getting back from the simulator
>>(linked above) are seriously at odds with some assumptions that some members in
>>this thread seem to hold:
>>
>>1. That the computers at Bilbao had a roughly equal chance of winning. If you
>>create a high probability of winning (in order to justify Hydra and Fritz's
>>results), then you end up with a startlingly low probability of Junior getting
>>the low score that it did - EVEN WITH ONLY 4 GAMES.
>>
>>2. Joachim used a 50% probability of winning in his post to get acceptable
>>probabilities for the 3 different outcomes (3.5/4 x 2 and 1.5/4). However - this
>>is at odds with what Dr Hyatt wrote - which is that when contemplating computer
>>chess strength, I should "think lower"
>>(http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?391290)
>>
>>IMO, in terms of what members have been writing in this thread, these are VERY
>>SIGNIFICANT points.
>>
>>-g
>
>Well many including myself and Dr.Hyatt have been saying for years that
>computers are not stronger than humans. They might be equal to humans but not
>stronger.
>
>Computers still have the major flaw in long term planning, and positional
>management in a game. This is where the human GM excels, and crushes the
>computer opponent.
>
>If you talk to Amir, I am sure he is quite pleased with 3 draws and only 1 loss
>vs these GM's. I am just as sure that Robert would be happy with such a result.
>
>It is common thinking that computers are dominant in the game of chess, and the
>loss by Junior shows just how far computers have to come. Just as the games by
>Shredder on ICC at 120/0 show that it is hardly the ideal opponent for humans,
>yet is the strongest when it comes to playing computers.

At the risk of being argumentative, I'm afraid I disagree with your view.

Between them, Fritz and Hydra score 7/8 in Bilbao. I have just run the simulator
(http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?391364) for an 8 game
tournament, with the win probability at 33%, the draw probability at 34%, and
the lose probability at 33%. If you truly believe that GMs can crush computers
at will (implied by you 4 paragraphs above), then these odds are very generous.

The results?

0.52% probability of achieving 7 points
0.09% probability of achieving 7.5 points
0.03% probability of achieving 8 points

That's only a 1/160 probability of being able to score that high.

That's not right!

-g

>Any opinion of strength based on one result, or tournament is just that. An
>opinion. Opinions are just like assholes.. everyone has one.
>
>Peter



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