Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:01:31 05/09/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 09, 2001 at 19:20:18, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 09, 2001 at 18:41:43, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On May 09, 2001 at 13:33:21, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>> >>>The rules of chess say that the if a game takes more than 9999 half moves both >>>sides can ask for a draw by the 50 move rule. >>> >>>If you do not assume that both opponents are stupid in your calculation then it >>>is clear that one of them will ask for the draw so you can assume for practical >>>purpose that it is a draw. >> >> >>Suppose it is a game, for "winner takes all" where if it is drawn, nobody >>gets a cent? Will you claim the 50-move draw there or will you keep trying >>to win the pot of gold? >> >>Then you see why I say that unless someone proves that chess is won for white >>or black, which is not going to happen for a few thousand centuries, then I >>will keep playing. Until the end of time if needed, hoping for my opponent to >>make a mistake... >> >> >>> >>>I can prove for a bigger constant that there is not. >>>The shortest mate is of less than 10^100 plies because every game of 10^100 >>>plies include repetitions and if there is a mate there is a shorter mate with no >>>repetitions. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>That doesn't make the length of all possible games finite however. > >It is totally irrelevant. >The point is that even without the 50 move rule after enough plies searching >deeper is not going to give better results. > >If you find a forced mate for one of the sides it is clear that searching deeper >is not going to help. > >If you do not find a forced mate for one side then it is clear that the position >is drawn and searching deeper is not going to help(programs do not assume that >the opponent will do a mistake in their search). > >Uri Please prove that KQQQ vs KQQQ is drawn or won for each case. Note that we declare the 50-move rule is not in use. How do you decide when to declare a position drawn? No captures in 50 moves? I'll be happy to show you a 5 piece position where a forced mate happens _well_ beyond the 50 move rule. So how do you stop? It isn't necessary that my opponent "do a mistake". It is just necessary that I search deeply enough to find the forced win that just happens to be beyond 50 moves. Or beyond 500 moves. Or beyond 5000 moves. If you can prove that for a simple 8 piece ending, then we go to nine and then ten. Pretty soon we are into some _huge_ trees. I think you will find the KQQQ vs KQQQ is more than enough however, to make this point. We know that for 5 piece endings we have mates beyond 100 moves. For 6 we don't know the max yet, but we do know it is > 5 piece max. There are some known 200 move mates in 6 piece endings with no captures for way over a hundred moves. What do you think might happen by the time we attempt 32 man files? billions of moves before a forced mate?
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