Author: Uri Blass
Date: 21:35:50 05/09/01
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On May 09, 2001 at 22:01:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On May 09, 2001 at 19:20:18, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On May 09, 2001 at 18:41:43, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On May 09, 2001 at 13:33:21, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>The rules of chess say that the if a game takes more than 9999 half moves both >>>>sides can ask for a draw by the 50 move rule. >>>> >>>>If you do not assume that both opponents are stupid in your calculation then it >>>>is clear that one of them will ask for the draw so you can assume for practical >>>>purpose that it is a draw. >>> >>> >>>Suppose it is a game, for "winner takes all" where if it is drawn, nobody >>>gets a cent? Will you claim the 50-move draw there or will you keep trying >>>to win the pot of gold? >>> >>>Then you see why I say that unless someone proves that chess is won for white >>>or black, which is not going to happen for a few thousand centuries, then I >>>will keep playing. Until the end of time if needed, hoping for my opponent to >>>make a mistake... >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I can prove for a bigger constant that there is not. >>>>The shortest mate is of less than 10^100 plies because every game of 10^100 >>>>plies include repetitions and if there is a mate there is a shorter mate with no >>>>repetitions. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>>That doesn't make the length of all possible games finite however. >> >>It is totally irrelevant. >>The point is that even without the 50 move rule after enough plies searching >>deeper is not going to give better results. >> >>If you find a forced mate for one of the sides it is clear that searching deeper >>is not going to help. >> >>If you do not find a forced mate for one side then it is clear that the position >>is drawn and searching deeper is not going to help(programs do not assume that >>the opponent will do a mistake in their search). >> >>Uri > > >Please prove that KQQQ vs KQQQ is drawn or won for each case. Note that we >declare the 50-move rule is not in use. How do you decide when to declare a >position drawn? No captures in 50 moves? I'll be happy to show you a 5 piece >position where a forced mate happens _well_ beyond the 50 move rule. So how >do you stop? 10^50 is an upper bound of the number of the legal positions(2 positions are the same if the pieces are in the same places and both sides have the same right to castle and the same rights to capture by the en passant rule). After less than 10^50 moves the same position happens twice If you can mate in 10^50 moves the game contains a repetition of the same position twice. If you can win with repetition you have a shorter win without repetition. It means that the problem of finding if a position is a draw or a forced mate is solvable in a finite time even without the 50 move rule Uri
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