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Subject: Re: List of participants for WCCC

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 21:32:18 05/16/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 15, 2004 at 03:15:20, Amir Ban wrote:

>On May 14, 2004 at 20:03:35, Matthew Hull wrote:
>
>>On May 14, 2004 at 18:26:54, Amir Ban wrote:
>>
>>>On May 14, 2004 at 12:32:26, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 14, 2004 at 12:16:57, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 13, 2004 at 20:17:42, Russell Reagan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Not anyone can play. Only people who have several thousand dollars and two
>>>>weeks >>to burn can play. I don't know many people in that situation, or at
>>>>least if >>they are in that situation and participated, the locks would be
>>>>changed when >>they returned home from the trip :)
>>>>>
>>>>>FYI, travel costs and hardware are sponsored by the organisation.
>>>>
>>>>No, they are not.  $2000 dollars is not sponsored by the organization, neither
>>>>the hotel, nor the paid time off for two weeks.  The entire situation is
>>>>calculated to discourage American participation.  The physical format is
>>>>calculated to permit cheating, as was done with the illeagal throwing of a
>>>>drawn game to the eventual "winner".  It is a corrupt establishment designed to
>>>>cater to European interests, and to snub Americans.
>>>>It is therefore an irrelevant contest, just like the FIDE World Championship is
>>>>completely irrelevant.
>>>>:)
>>>>
>>>>CCT is now the venue for true WORLD comptetition, instead of just European
>>>>competition.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No it's not. I will come to CCT to experiment, if I come at all. Others don't
>>>bother to show up, and why should they ?
>>
>>
>>Right, what commercial product wants to get beat by crafty?  It's bad for
>>marketing to loose to the likes of Zappa and bodo.  Then people like Vincent and
>>GCP couldn't show up here slamming the professor.
>>
>
>Make up your mind: Is crafty the menace that keeps everyone important from CCT
>or is CCT the all-inclusive tournament ?
>
>I don't understand why I should be scared of meeting crafty at CCT, but not
>scared of meeting it at WCCC. Crafty's been there in previous WCCC most of the
>time.

I remember 1996/1997.  And maybe one other event.  That's 3 out of 10 maybe...

I don't believe the "scared" stuff.  I'm not "scared" to play anybody.  Heck, I
played Deep Thought, Belle, chess 4.x...  That was part of the process.  I doubt
any commercial programmer would be "scared".  "worried" might well apply as
there are serious hardware platforms that can serve like the old Colt .45
revolver of the wild-wild west.  Often called "the great equalizer".  :)

I don't attend for simple reasons.

1.  Too expensive to travel to Europe every year.  If it were in NA every other
year as the charter once demanded, I could at least make those as I always did
in the past, and occasionally make the ones in Europe.

2.  Too long.  For the first 25 years these events were 5 rounds and 4 days
long.  Now they stretch to two weeks.  My only choice would be to make that a
family vacation, and it would have to be scheduled during two breaks that might
possibly be long enough for me to attend.  But I don't see the ICCA (or anyone)
trying to work around one participant's schedule, it doesn't make much sense.
It would be easier to just shorten the event.  Worst case could be 5 days, 2
rounds per day, although that still turns into a week with travel days required
for international travel.

3.  Getting a local operator is a non-optimal solution.  I can't do any book
updates.  Seems like the ICCA is not very big on having local network access to
make that doable.  The _right_ person to operate Crafty is me.  I know the
program.  I know what kind of book lines it will do ok in and what to avoid.
Due to _lots_ of experience.  I can't give that experience to an operator
although the three I have used did pretty well.

For now, my option is the CCT events.  I can attend them.  They don't cost a
fortune, and they are getting bigger and bigger.  A couple of years will see
more commercial interest as the word will slowly "get around" and customers will
be asking "how did your product do in the cct-8 event?" for example.  Once CCT
becomes better-known, avoiding it will become a marketing mistake.  That time
will come.



>
>
>>:)
>>
>>
>>
>>>It's not a major event.
>>
>>
>>Nonesense.  50 programs is a huge event.  Much bigger than some expensive,
>>exclusive, back-yard barbecue at the ICGA.
>>
>
>There are thousands of players at Biel, only a dozen at Wijk an Zee. So what ?
>When was the last time Kasparov, Polgar, Anand played in Biel ?
>

CCT is hardly like Biel.  WCCC is hardly like Wijk an Zee, either.  Although it
is giving it a run size-wise. :)

You are _totally_ overlooking the _point_ of having WCCC events.  They were
originally done to _promote_ computer chess interest and development around the
world.  IE like the olympics.  Not like professional football which is all about
winning and money...

which does better as far as _promoting_ chess?  Biel or Wijk?





>
>>No.  If they thought they could win, they would show up.  Remember?  ;)
>>
>>Americans don't show up in Europe because it's expensive.  Commercial European
>>projects don't show up at the FREE, no-expense CCT because they are chicken.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>CCT is a bit like Biel: crowded and noisy, with a few good players. But don't
>>>mistake Biel for Wijk an Zee.
>>
>>Programs don't care how much noise there is.  Just come and play.  You can't
>>stand it if bodo competes with you?  I thought the Championship was open to all?
>> Oh, only those who are well-off to afford $2000 travel.
>>
>
>America is not a third-world country, and the problem with your argument is that
>it works even better for real third-world countries, i.e. that Tanzanian program
>would be the world's best, if only its author could afford to write it.

I can only speak for myself, based on experience.  You are confusing commercial
computer chess development with amateur development.  You might consider it a
marketing plus to attend and hopefully do well, and consider it an investment in
advertising.  Not to me.  It is just a cost I'll never recoup.  And beginners
see a cost they can neither recoup nor afford...


>
>
>>How inclusive.
>>
>>:)
>>
>>>
>>>Which reminds me that no major chess tournament takes place in the USA nowadays.
>>>All the major tournaments are in Europe, but I don't hear you saying that
>>>Kaidanov and Stripunsky are the world's best.
>>
>>
>>Many Nations have easy access to Europe.  America is not easy or cheap for
>>Europeans to access.  It's simple economics.
>>
>
>"Easy access" ? Is this a geographical fact I didn't know ?
>
>Anyway, this must be the reason your major universities Harvard, Stanford, Yale
>etc. are intellectual backwaters without foreign students, who all go to
>European universities. Not.

Apples and oranges.  You go to quality when you are investing.  And an education
is definitely an investment.  Amateur computer chess development is _not_ an
investment in any way other than an investment in enjoyment...  Unversities are
built of people and facilities, over time.  People that want a particular
program or a particular faculty or a particular reputation will go to where they
can find what they want.  Computer chess events are not the same.  They _can_ be
spread around the world since they have no fixed facility or location or
personnel...




>
>Amir
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Amir



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